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Is Osama Alive or Dead?

By Jeralyn, Section War on Terror
Posted on Sat Sep 10, 2005 at 11:44:29 PM EST
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What Really Happened tracks past news accounts to make the case that Osama bin Laden is dead. It begins:

Osama bin Laden is dead. The news first came from sources in Afghanistan and Pakistan almost six months ago: the fugitive died in December [2001] and was buried in the mountains of southeast Afghanistan. Pakistan's president, Pervez Musharraf, echoed the information. The remnants of Osama's gang, however, have mostly stayed silent, either to keep Osama's ghost alive or because they have no means of communication.

With an ego the size of Mount Everest, Osama bin Laden would not have, could not have, remained silent for so long if he were still alive. He always liked to take credit even for things he had nothing to do with. Would he remain silent for nine months and not trumpet his own survival? [New York Times. July 11, 2002]

So what do you think? Is he alive or dead? Does the Administration benefit from us believing he's still alive and a present danger? On a related topic, don't miss Michael Tomasky's new article in American Prospect, Day 1,461 and Counting.

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    Is Osama Alive or Dead? | 48 comments (48 topical)
    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:38 PM EST
    Does the Administration benefit from us believing he's still alive and a present danger?
    ...since we like to draw conclusions based on what will be of least benefit to the Administration, not objective facts...

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#2)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:38 PM EST
    So what are the objective facts, grad?

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#3)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    The administration has hardly mentioned his name since december '01, so as not to distract us from Iraq. The neocons certainly do benefit by creating instability and war in the word. Peace is not very profitable. Egging on 'terrorists' helps them to control Americans because the scareder and angrier we get the more maleable we become. Guaranteed that the next terror attack on America will send Chimperor's ratings up at least 30% point. It is all too easy.

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#4)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    Well, since winning the office pool on Bush's most recent poll ratings by a landslide, I think I'll venture out on this as well. The man is DEAD and was given a proper Muslin funeral. Since grad student highlights this quote - I'll answer that question with this question: Does the Administration benefit from us believing he's still alive and a present danger? Ya think?

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#5)
    by Pete Guither on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    So what is a proper muslin funeral? How much material do you have to use? :-) Back on subject, I think Osama is alive and well and living on a ranch in Crawford, Texas. You see, he and George Bush made a little deal. Bush would give Osama amnesty, create a nice new fertile terrorist recruiting ground in the Middle East, and take away some American freedom. In exchange, Osama pledged no more attacks on American soil. (That's why Katrina caught Bush off guard -- he didn't think he'd really have to use homeland security.) [Removing tin-foil hat]

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#6)
    by bad Jim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    Osama bin Laden has, like Schroedinger's cat, been in a superposition of dead and undead states since Operation [Infinite Justice] Enduring Freedom. As the necessary Other, the very embodiment of evil, he can never disappear, since if he didn't exist our fears would be foolish.

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    Yes that's right, the neo-cons "hardly mentioned his name since december '01, so as not to distract us from Iraq" (Squeaky) while simultaneously hoping that he'll stay in the forefront of our minds "since if he didn't exist our fears would be foolish." (bad Jim) It's contradictory, but don't let that stand in your way. As true leftists we must choose the position that suits our inclinations and then try to warp the facts until they fit it. Meanwhile Bush the moron continues to mastermind a brilliant conspiracy to conquer the world. Mwha-hah-ha!

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    What about the statement Osama released just before the 2004 election?

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#9)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    Very clever, grad student. Yeah, I can't think of a single instance where a Republican mentioned 9/11 since December 2001. We leftists are so full of it. Your degree really pays for itself, doesn't it?

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    Oopssft.
    The man is DEAD and was given a proper Muslin funeral.
    Well...the 'm' is right next to the 'n'. I'd say a good 9 yards.

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    The answere is no, yes, maybe so. As long as there is no bodie there will be endless discussions like this one. unless we get another video. This time the discussion will be wheter it is Osama or a really short body double. A minie me osama iof you will. There was a price for not getting him "DEAD or Alive" after 9/11. I know, I know PPJ and his buds will say Clinton should have caught him. Oh Fuc* another fight with PPJ and the Blame game!

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    I don't think I can put much stock in a web page that puts forward discredited theories that FDR was the mastermind behind Pearl Harbor: "And, it is now well established that FDR not only allowed the attack on Pearl Harbor to happen, but goaded the Japanese into it to get a reluctant US into WW2." Serious historians have debunked that one a long time ago (see Doris Kearns Godwin, No Ordinary Time for example - and before you start, she was accused of plagerisam, not lying about history) Or in a source that claims that FDR plotted to turn the US states into a Soviet America (gasp!) Socialism! OMYGODNO!!! No offense, but I thought you guys were supposed to be among the elite among this country's lawyers. Don't you recognize an easily discreditable source when you see one? Jesus H. Christ!

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    Ed B - You brought the subject up.

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    grad student: Does the Administration benefit from us believing [Osama is] still alive and a present danger? Probably (at least the Bush League would think so)... if you subscribe to the view that one of the goals of the Straussian NeoCons is an era of perpetual war, and the manipulation of the public through fear as the means to absolute power. Samuel P. Huntington, Albert J. Weatherhead III University Professor, and Chairman of the Harvard Academy of International and Area Studies, hypothesized in "The Clash of Civilizations":
    that the fundamental source of conflict in this new world will not be primarily ideological or primarily economic. The great divisions among humankind and the dominating source of conflict will be cultural. Nation states will remain the most powerful actors in world affairs, but the principal conflicts of global politics will occur between nations and groups of different civilizations. The clash of civilizations will dominate global politics. The fault lines between civilizations will be the battle lines of the future. World politics is entering a new phase, and intellectuals have not hesitated to proliferate visions of what it will be-the end of history, the return of traditional rivalries between nation states, and the decline of the nation state from the conflicting pulls of tribalism and globalism, among others. Each of these visions catches aspects of the emerging reality.
    Without the cold war and the Soviet Union as ultimate enemy, so the thinking goes, a new enemy was needed. Terror and Islamic Fundamentalist fanaticism. "They hate freedom" is the most patently ridiculous meme ever propounded - as if anyone, anywhere, would "hate freedom". You need to be brain damaged to not see through this. Of course it would help the "pushers" (they are worse than drug pushers in this respect) of this meme to have an evil face and name to point to, as the embodiment and spiritual leader of ultimate evil. Another ridiculous, dangerous, and disgusting meme put forward in recent years by the Bush League is: "We must give up a little bit of freedom, in the name of security". The trouble with that, of course, is that if you do it today, and do it again tomorrow, and do it every day, soon there is no freedom left at all... ----- I've said this before in other posts, and I'll say it again here:
    America, I think, has an opportunity here. And a simple choice... Act like the eagle. Or act like a vulture. People everywhere look UP to and admire eagles. They are disgusted by and kill vultures.
    We live in a very dangerous world. On that point I do agree with the Bush League Sweet Neo Cons:
    You lie to your people, and blame it on your war of course You call yourself a Christian, I call you a hypocrite You call yourself a patriot, well I think you're full of sh*t


    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#15)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    The stuff that I talked about above, is a much simpler than it appears, and doesn't take a genius to figure out, only a bit of reflection. I work in sales, marketing, and management consulting. "Sell 'em a problem... Then sell 'em your solution to the problem they have." What is happening is identical to creating a market for a product or service. The way to fight it is simple. Don't buy it... (either the problem, or the solution offered) It's "snake oil"...

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#16)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    Stephen Stills said it all, back in 1966: For What it's Worth...
    There's something happening here What it is ain't exactly clear There's a man with a gun over there Telling me I got to beware I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound Everybody look what's going down...


    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#17)
    by theologicus on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    I think he's probably dead (along with al-Zarqawi, by the way). The life he lives is the life of a useful fiction, a virtual life. If he did not exist, we would have to invent him.

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    edger writes::
    Without the cold war and the Soviet Union as ultimate enemy, so the thinking goes, a new enemy was needed. Terror and Islamic Fundamentalist fanaticism. "They hate freedom" is the most patently ridiculous meme ever propounded - as if anyone, anywhere, would "hate freedom". You need to be brain damaged to not see through this. (emphasis mine)
    You ignore the fact that the fundamentalist terror groups do not support freedom of religion. They also do not support freedom for the female members of their group, and their vision of law is no where near the laws of the US and other, particularly, western countries. Secondly, you ignore what OBL in March of ‘97, at that time indisputably alive, said to Perer Arrnett of CNN during his now well known interview. I quote:
    BIN LADIN: We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation of the Prophet's Night Travel Land (Palestine). And we believe the US is directly responsible for those who were killed in Palestine, Lebanon and Iraq……. …..REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, will the end of the United States' presence in Saudi Arabia, their withdrawal, will that end your call for jihad against the United States and against the US ? BIN LADIN: The cause of the reaction must be sought and the act that has triggered this reaction must be eliminated. The reaction came as a result of the US aggressive policy towards the entire Muslim world and not just towards the Arabian peninsula. So if the cause that has called for this act comes to an end, this act, in turn, will come to an end. So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world. (Emphasis mine)
    So by their own religious beliefs and laws they hate us because of our freedom of religion, female freedom, laws protecting freedom, etc. But they also hate us for what we have done. And even if we withdraw it is not enough. They demand that we let them do what they want, “in the whole world.” You also write:
    I work in sales, marketing, and management consulting. "Sell 'em a problem... Then sell 'em your solution to the problem they have." What is happening is identical to creating a market for a product or service.
    So what you are saying is that you are no different than the neo-cons. BTW – I know some consultants that, when they see no problem, or if they see no solution, walk away. They think to do otherwise is dishonest. What say you, Squeak?

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#19)
    by Aaron on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    Still on his whirlwind worldwide tour, bin Laden's relationship with George W. Bush and the Bush administration has never been better, but lately there's been some trouble reported in paradise. It seems Osama has been at odds with the US Secret Service agents who biannually smuggle him and the whole bin Laden clan into Bush's Crawford ranch for their regularly scheduled strategy and policy discussions with the president over a Texas style barbecue (dry rub ribs and armadillo pie). Apparently Bush's protection unit has had to restrain Osama's little brother, Mohammed bin Laden, a number of times after he and George have gotten into heated arguments over which region has a hotter climate, Central Saudi Arabia or Midland Texas. These altercations, which seem to always take place after the younger bin Laden and Dubya have imbibed in a few too many Lone Stars, led the Secret Service to begin restricting the amount of beer served at these gatherings. Sources tell us that this move has angered Osama and especially the president, who was heard to state in response to the proposed beer cap "who do they think they are, Barbara?" On a lighter note, it seems Laura has become quite close with several of Osama's wives especially Amal al-Sadah, Osama's favorite, going so far as to exchanging potato salad and couscous recipes. Though Mrs. bin Laden still wears the traditional abaya and veil keeping her face covered most of the time, Laura has begun advising "Amaly", as she has taken to calling her, on the finer points of applying makeup, even convincing her to where lipstick, much to the chagrin of her husband. On the youth front, rumor has it that bin Laden's eldest son Saad has become quite smitten with one of the Bush sisters, we won't say who...... Jenna, the wild one. But unfortunately wedding bells are not in the offing given the two families competing fundamentalist religious beliefs which have created irreconcilable matrimonial issues. It seems Osama likes to josh around with the president, saying he was most responsible for George's reelection in 2004. But Dubya just jokingly chides the elder bin Laden right back with the scathing retort "shut up you overgrown towel head, or I'll give your jihadist ass to the FDNY." "They always get a big laugh out of that," says Laura. The two families have become so close that the bin Laden's are considering buying the property adjacent to the Crawford ranch in Texas so that Osama and Dubya can live out those golden retirement years together, reliving the glory days.

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    He's Osama Bin Forgotten!! The administration used resources in Iraq that could have been used in Afghanistan hunting down the real enemy, Bin Laden! Took their eyes off the ball! They're trying to make us forget his existence in a classic bait and switch! No wait, that's what the administration wants you to think. Actually he's dead, there is no "ball" in Afghanistan, and they're refusing to admit that Rove is behind the whole thing. No, I mean they've got his body on ice and they're waiting to produce it just before the election in November 2004 - oops, guess not. No wait, I mean it favors the transition of the US into a dicatorship. Which is falling into the trap set by the conclusively still-alive Bin Laden. No wait, actually he's dead... Hard to choose our conclusion when we're not sure which one best fits into our leftist political world. Damn. This site is like a soap opera - the conclusion is known in advance but it sure is fun to watch the plot reversals that get us there.

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    edger - Sorry about the "squeak." I, of course, meant "ed."

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    Grad Student - No. The conclusion depends on what the need is. ;-)

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#23)
    by krazycory on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    it wouldnt surprise me if osama AND saddam were both living in the west wing of the white house

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#24)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    Jim:what you are saying is that you are no different than the neo-cons. BTW – I know some consultants that, when they see no problem, or if they see no solution, walk away. They think to do otherwise is dishonest. sigh... details Jim... I know some of them too... I look at one every day... while I shave...

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#25)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    grad: He's Osama Bin Forgotten!! Maybe he's Osama Use-to Been Ladin... ;-)

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#26)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    Aaron: Hilarious!!! Funniest thing I've read lately, 'cept for Jim's rantings, of coarse!! Saad Bin Ladin??? Heh! heh! Hahahahahahaahahahaha! and Heh!

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#27)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    From buzzflash.com
    "The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him." - G.W. Bush, 9/13/01 "I want justice...There's an old poster out West, as I recall, that said, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive,'" - G.W. Bush, 9/17/01, UPI "...Secondly, he is not escaping us. This is a guy, who, three months ago, was in control of a county [sic]. Now he's maybe in control of a cave. He's on the run. Listen, a while ago I said to the American people, our objective is more than bin Laden. But one of the things for certain is we're going to get him running and keep him running, and bring him to justice. And that's what's happening. He's on the run, if he's running at all. So we don't know whether he's in cave with the door shut, or a cave with the door open -- we just don't know...." - Bush, in remarks in a Press Availablity with the Press Travel Pool, The Prairie Chapel Ranch, Crawford TX, 12/28/01, as reported on official White House site "I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." - G.W. Bush, 3/13/02 "I am truly not that concerned about him." - G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts, 3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02)
    PPJ:
    The conclusion depends on what the need is. ;-)
    ------------------------------------- One thing is for sure: Independently of whether bin Laden himself is dead or alive, his right-hand man Al-Zawahiri is definitely still alive; he was probably behind the London bombings. And Al Qaeda itself as an organization is of course very much alive.

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#28)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    Sorry, that first quote is not from buzzflash, bad formatting.

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#30)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    Happy 9/11 everyone. Juan Cole has some good stuff regarding Iraq, Osama, al-Zawahiri and the indiscriminate murdering that is happening in Tal Afar.
    Al-Qaeda simply hasn't been a priority for Bush. His first priority, all along, has been cutting taxes on his rich friends....
    but grad says "...since we like to draw conclusions based on what will be of least benefit to the Administration, not objective facts..
    That they have not succeeded in capturing Usamah Bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri is a sign of extreme negligence or lack of seriousness....
    but grad says "...since we like to draw conclusions based on what will be of least benefit to the Administration, not objective facts..
    The Bush administration has dropped the ball on al-Qaeda, big time. The Iraq War has created a new recruiting ground for al-Qaeda and its soul mates among the Sunni Arabs of Iraq. In Haifa Street in Baghdad and in Samarra, there have actually been crowds wearing al-Qaeda insignia. Contrary to what the Bush administration would have you believe, Iraqis had had virtually nothing to do with al-Qaeda before the American invasion. Iraqi Sunnis had once mostly been secular Arab nationalists....
    but grad says "...since we like to draw conclusions based on what will be of least benefit to the Administration, not objective facts..
    Operations such as Fallujah and Tal Afar, involving the displacement of hundreds of thousands of people, the damaging of a majority of buildings in the city, and the deaths of thousands, will not soon be forgotten by the country's Sunni Arabs. Some have spoken of taking revenge by finding a way to hit the American homeland. Things are not going well....
    but grad says "...since we like to draw conclusions based on what will be of least benefit to the Administration, not objective facts..
    In four years, Roosevelt and allies defeated Nazi Germany and imperial Japan. In four years, Bush hasn't managed even to corner Bin Laden and a few hundred scruffy terrorists; or to extract himself from the deserts of Iraq; or to put the government's finances in good order so that it can deal with crises like Katrina.
    but grad says "...since we like to draw conclusions based on what will be of least benefit to the Administration, not objective facts.. grad-you are making PPJ look like a relative genius. Is/was your school accredited or is your "grad student" moniker merely a fantasy? Professor Juan Cole has some more facts for you.

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    krazy cory - Uh huh. Squeaky - Glad to see you taking over from SD. Juan Cole needs a front man on TL. You copy:
    In four years, Roosevelt and allies defeated Nazi Germany and imperial Japan. In four years, Bush hasn't managed even to corner Bin Laden and a few hundred scruffy terrorists;
    See Grad, I told you it was the concusion that is important, not the facts. So Juan Cole compares a war in which we mobilized millions, had a draft, lost 405,000 dead and concluded it with the use of the atomic bomb to a war in which we have lost about 4500 dead, tried our best to not destroy enemy infrastructure and tell people to leave the city before we attack it. Yep, that Juan Cole knows some stuff, eh? edger writes:
    details Jim... I know some of them too... I look at one every day... while I shave...
    And what do you see? The former or the latter? ;-)

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    Molly, the sources cited in WHR's article were all mainstream media. Like the New York Times. It's the message, not WHR, the messenger I'm positing. I do think the issue of whether Osama is dead is a valid one, particularly today, four years after 9/11. Yes, the site can be over the top on several issues On the other hand, it also has valuable links to MSM articles I might otherwise miss.

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#33)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    PPJ-It was your liberal friend the Chimp who made the analogy. Did not mean to set a trap for you I hoped you might go to the link first before embarassing yourself again:
    Bush recently started likening his poorly conceived and misnamed "war on terror" to World War II. What his handlers have forgotten is how long World War II lasted for the United States. Four years.
    link The lesson was for grad but since you are like two peas in a pod I am not surprised that you are acting as her front man. PPJ to the rescue she obviously needs help.

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#34)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    I may have been unduly harsh. I apologize. I concede the question of OBL being alive or dead is a timely one. Your source web site may use a lot of MSM sources, however, when I see discredited conspiracy theory on Peal Harbor coupled with warmed over John Bircherisms, I didn't stick around long enough to check that out. May I be so bold to suggest that the next time you source to What Really Happened that you caveat it with "WARNING this site's author is a conspiracy theoriest with a taste for warmed over Bircherisms, but I think the question presented is still valid" or something similar?

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#35)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    Jim: And what do you see? The former or the latter? ;-) Hard enough to get any respect, huh? You figure thinly veiled questioning of my honesty will help?

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#36)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    MB-Most of times it is useful to go through a site like the What Really Happened and decide that is is bogus or problematic on ones own. Warnings are good when death or harm is imminent but in the cases you point out is is not very helpful and leads to a sort of big brother dependency. There are sites that consistently post wacko stuff and links in kind, this site is far from that, although it may boil down to differing points of view. I doubt that Molly Bloom, your namesake, would ever want to be party to warnings about provocative content. Perhaps I am thinking of the wrong Molly Bloom, if so my apologies for the confusion.

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    Squeaky - Are you saying W is agreeing with Juan Cole or are you saying Juan Cole is agreeing with Bush? Inquiring minds probably, well, likely, well, in some cases may, want to know. edger - It was just a question, and a joking one at that. You know how us suicide types are. ;-)

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    Squeaky and Edger - I note that neither of you dispute my point.

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#39)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    Jim:
    It was just a question, and a joking one at that [...] ;-)
    ;-) It occurs to me that, if you and I keep winking at each other Jim, the rest of 'em might start to wonder... :~| ... Ah, hell with it... let 'em!

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#40)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    PPJ-WTF are you talking about, I worry when you try to be clever as you may hurt yourself in the process.

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#41)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    This is getting silly, but I have nothing better tonight. I was not asking for censorship, or paternalism or big brother government (although as an FDR Democrat, I am not per se opposed to government, I only oppose ineffective government). My views on the 1st amendment are similar to the late J. William O. Douglas, but there is a difference between provcative content and nonsense (and I wouldn't censor either one). If someone points me to a link that has crackpot conspiracy theory and warmed over Bircherisms, I am just not going to take that site very seriously. I am afraid this holds over to the argument or point the person pointing me to that site is making. Putting it another way, if I point someone to such a website, I'd put a disclaimer so as not trample on my argument or point. It is, I suppose, guilt by association, but I am not being asked to be a fair factfinder where somebody's life or liberty is at stake, I am being given a point of view, I have only a few minutes to consider its validity and it is fair to consider the source when making that snap judgment. If I am given contrasting economic arguments by Paul Krugman and George Bush, and if all I know about either is that one is a respected expert in his field and the other is a failed businessman who thinks the earth is only six thousand years old, I am more likely to accept the argument of Krugman. A disclaimer would tell me you understand the source is dubious, but that I should take point seriously anyway. That said, I suppose I should have taken into account my experience with Talkleft and considered that you don't consistently point me to poor sources. As for my namesake, my online name is my dog's. However, she was named during my Irish period and she is a free spirit.

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#42)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    MB-I just couldn't resist the irony of your moniker here and your suggestion that a site warning be posted. I understand your reasoning and that you are not Molly Bloom but the association of her and Joyce with censorhsip and warnings struck me as hilarious. The text of her soliloquy cannot even be posted on this site today in 2005. This bit can though and with a (big) stretch of imagination even relates to the post:
    Im sure itll be grand if I can only get in with a handsome young poet at my age Ill throw them the 1st thing in the morning till I see if the wishcard comes out or Ill try pairing the lady herself and see if he comes out Ill read and study all I can find or learn a bit off by heart if I knew who he likes so he wont think me stupid if he thinks all women are the same and I can teach him the other part Ill make him feel all over him till he half faints under me then hell write about me lover and mistress publicly too with our 2 photographs in all the papers when he becomes famous O but then what am I going to do about him though...


    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    What about the statement Osama released just before the 2004 election?
    Pre-recording video and playing it back at a later date does not exist. You must banish this heretical thought from your mind.

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    Squeaky - Clever? Me? Heavens no. edger - Hugs and hugs.

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    Molly writes:
    If I am given contrasting economic arguments by Paul Krugman and George Bush, and if all I know about either is that one is a respected expert in
    Well you did say "I am not being asked to be a fair factfinder.."

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    Yes, commentary from a site where one of the participants has the nom d'Internett of "hindrocket" is a credible source...... NOT!

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:43 PM EST
    DA - Perhaps if you had bothered to read the link, you could have then followed the link to this left leaning Quando link.
    Why didn't Bush issue the orders? Well, here's the thing: he did. Katrina hit the coast on August 29th. On August 30th, the "Pentagon announced it will send five ships, though four are several days away". The other was the USS Bataan, which was following behind the storm. On the morning of August 31, the USS Bataan was flying missions into Louisiana, as "four MH-53 Sea Stallion and two HH-60 Seahawk helicopters from USS Bataan were flying medical-evacuation and search-and-rescue missions in Louisiana, and Bataan's hospital was preparing for possible use for medical support..... So, operations began on Tuesday, rather than the Wednesday morning I originally cited. More details at the USS Bataan's website.
    It will be intersting to see what Krugman says.

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#50)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:44 PM EST
    JimakaPPJ, You went outside the hypothetical... If asked to choosed... "and all I knew about either" was that one was "a respected expert in his field" and the other was "a failed businessman who believed the earth was only six thousand years old" I'd say any fair minded fact finder would have to chose the expert under these circumstances. You mean to say given the same circumstances and only knowning the same facts as given in the hypo, that you would find a failed businessman who believed the earth was only six thousand years old was more credible than a respected expert in his field on the topic that is within the experts' subject of expertise??? !!!

    Re: Is Osama Alive or Dead? (none / 0) (#51)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:44 PM EST
    That's our ppj, he hates anyone smarter than him, ergo he loves bu**sh*t, and despises Krugman.

    Is Osama Alive or Dead? | 48 comments (48 topical)