home

The VP Choice: Do No Harm

Trapper John has an interesting post on how Barack Obama MIGHT be approaching his VP choice. Trapper's bottom line? Obama will choose the "do no harm" option. I suspect that is the thinking in the Obama camp and likely the McCain camp (though clearly McCain will be more likely to take a risk for some upside). Here's the problem I see with Trapper's analysis - it is impossible for any choice to not do some harm.

I know they do not like to hear this at daily kos, but the day Obama announces his VP and it is not Hillary Clinton, that will cause Obama harm. It may be unfair, it may be wrong, but it is a fact. (My own view is that picking Hillary Clinton clearly remains the best choice for Obama, both on the positive and negative side. Clinton's supporters will be energized, her fundraisers will work their heart out, the Clinton brand will help with voters on the issue of the economy, she has become a first rate campaigner, etc. But he will not pick her for reasons only Obama can and will have to explain.)

More . . .

The negative impact of not picking Clinton will be compounded if Obama picks a different woman. Oh I know that daily kos thinks that is outrageous. But it is. I think the Obama camp realizes that.

So who does that leave in my assessment? Three choices - Biden, Bayh and Kaine. Only one is a "reinforcing" pick - Tim Kaine. He is not a Washington figure. He can be sold as a "new" politics type. Biden and Bayh are longtime Washington figures. Of course, Kaine's stances on choice will be a big negative but Obama does not seem to care about that, as his own statements have proven.

Trapper posits that Obama won't pick Kaine because "[i]t's taken the Democratic party 40 years to get to the point where it's a majority party in Virginia -- I just can't see willingly handing over the governor's mansion to a Republican, even if it is for only one year." I doubt that will stop Obama. I think it is Kaine UNLESS Obama decides he needs "experience" in the VP slot.

Trapper proposes Tom Daschle as the "experience" choice. To me it would be stunning if he chose a lobbyist whose very image is Washington DC, who voted for the Iraq War, who is the very essence of "old style" Washington politics. I think and hope Daschle is absolutely not even possibly a pick.

Between Bayh and Biden, it is true that Biden is gaffe prone, but he is an effective attack dog with a resume that allows him to attack John McCain on foreign policy. If "experience," foreign policy and attack dog is what Obama decides he needs for his VP, I think Biden will be his choice.

If economic chops are the order of the day, there is only one name in Democratic politics that makes sense - Clinton. Since Obama does not want Clinton, he will convince himself he does not need economic chops from the VP.

My prediction? Tim Kaine. The "New" Politics prevails in the end.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

< The Move On Debate | House Committee Votes to Hold Karl Rove in Contempt >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Bayh and Biden (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:33:23 AM EST
    it would take some courage to pick Biden.  he has a mouth on him.
    I think Bayh does the least harm.  he is like the man who wasnt there.  which is probably his biggest asset in this contest.
    Kaine is death in my opinion and Daschel?  omg.
    new politics indeed.


    Kaine is also (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:00:51 AM EST
    I read, totally opposed to embryonic stem cell research.

    Parent
    So, he's Republican. (none / 0) (#56)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:09:33 AM EST
    It just gets worse. (none / 0) (#72)
    by Emma on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:15:53 AM EST
    Gah.

    Parent
    Well heck based on everything (none / 0) (#126)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:43:18 AM EST
    downthread, Obama's only choices are Bloomberg and Sebelius. I haven't heard any issues-based reasons not to support them. I'm all ears, and I'll keep asking till I get an reasoned answer.

    Parent
    Kaine is going to have some explaining (5.00 / 4) (#2)
    by andgarden on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:37:27 AM EST
    to do on choice, or he's going to seriously hurt the ticket.

    There is precedent for that: Al Gore and George H.W. Bush both flip-flopped on abortion.

    My second biggest concern about Kaine is that he has not developed a great reputation in Virginia. I am not so sure he would help the ticket there.

    Kaine, to me, is soooo boring. Pro-choice (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by zfran on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:39:26 AM EST
    wouldn't be my only criteria in voting for someone. I agree that both Kaine and Obama have positions on choice that leave a lot to be desired. What it will do for those who played the SCOTUS card, here and other places as an important reason to vote for Obama will have to find a new page to turn to. I agree that Hillary would be his best choice to win hands down. At this point, I'm not even sure how I feel about that ticket anymore.

    Evan Blah- (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by magisterludi on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:40:05 AM EST
    He bores me. I think another senator, other than Clinton, could be a prob, too.

    On a brighter note- the HJC just voted Rove in contempt of Congress. I guess it goes to the full House next.

    Good! (5.00 / 0) (#12)
    by pie on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:45:20 AM EST
    He'll just be pardoned, but at least they might end up exposing some of the rot in the Bush administration.

    Parent
    hmm have they found their courage? (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by hellothere on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:05:11 AM EST
    hope never dies!

    Parent
    i'll believe it has teeth (none / 0) (#61)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:12:40 AM EST
    when Rove is in that little jail cell they have in the Capitol building.  Patrick Leahey has been making these threats for 2 years now and never has followed through.

    Parent
    Bayh was also a Governor ... (none / 0) (#67)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:14:45 AM EST
    for eight years.

    Parent
    Choice (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Emma on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:42:08 AM EST
    Of course, Kaine's stances on choice will be a big negative but Obama does not seem to care about that, as his own statements have proven.

    After all, we have nowhere else to go.  I wonder how many of us won't go anywhere in Nov. if Kaine is the choice.  How, exactly, is a pro-life, anti-gay running mate "doing no harm"?

    They are counting on "us not going (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by zfran on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:45:16 AM EST
    anywhere" else in Nov. If we behave like the sheep they want us to be, other than some who I've seen attempting to hold some feet to some fires, then they can do whatever pleases their desires and since "they" keep telling us the electorate is not paying much attention to politics, who would really know...except the opposition who chops are probably watering.

    Parent
    if Kaine is the choice (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:48:00 AM EST
    the most interesting thing to watch will be the so called netroots.  if they buy into it all credibility will be gone.  it will be the last fig leaf.

    Parent
    Well, since some of the netroots (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by zfran on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:52:46 AM EST
    are Obama-planted (imo), they will accept whomever he deems acceptable to run with. What is so curious to me is how his rheteric is as if he's already either won the election or is about to, like he knows something the rest of us peons don't. If GWB can rig an election, why can't he or others around him. I think it doesn't matter who he chooses as vp. He is acting (for a while now)like he has won, hands down, it's a done deal, so a vp choice doesn't mean a thing. It seems rather odd and off-putting!!!

    Parent
    yep (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:57:48 AM EST
    I commented on this in a previous thread.  and the Media has him elected as well.
    on the other hand most of these same people were, a few months ago, assuring us that Hillary would be the next president.
    and I would add McCain has been counted out before.

    Parent
    Chutzpah (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by Mike H on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:44:34 AM EST
    In some ways I find the media's pre-November coronation of Obama as so arrogant as to be very off-putting.

    And it also reminds me of how we in New England acted as if the Superbowl were already won...

    Seems to me that the universe finds a way to trip up the overconfident.

    Parent

    IF they buy into it? (5.00 / 3) (#125)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:43:13 AM EST
    Obama could pick GWB as his running mate and the netroots would rationalize it as post-partisan triangulation.

    They lost their credibility a long time ago.  FISA was just the final bell.  Not because they stuck with him in spite of it, but because of the content of the rationalization.

    There's nothing he does, or could do, that the netroots cannot proclaim genius just because he does it.

    Parent

    except (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:24:59 PM EST
    except pick Clinton for VP.  They can rationalize ANYTHING ELSE but somehow, this would be a deal breaker....

    Parent
    those who assume! well that can and (none / 0) (#53)
    by hellothere on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:07:09 AM EST
    probably will be a serious miscalculation. personally i'd like to see another hell raising kingfish type personality come out and kick tush on both sides.

    Parent
    if Kaine (5.00 / 5) (#23)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:49:40 AM EST
    is anti-gay to go along with Obama's "acceptance" in to the tent of the religious anti-gay bigots, he'll NEVER get my vote.

    I don't see Obama inviting any racist bigots into the dem big tent party.  So, to me it just signals that Obama finds anti-gay bigotry less offensive than racial bigotry.  Might as well pick Donnie McClurkin for his VP to cement his religious base.

    Parent

    and those people (5.00 / 8) (#39)
    by ccpup on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:58:29 AM EST
    who still insist I vote for the Dem this year -- even if he makes my stomach turn -- are ignoring the fact that I'm aware my vote is supporting the present direction of the Party.

    Do I want to vote for an American Idol Candidate who's strength lies in drawing crowds -- with free beer, free food and a free concert beforehand in Berlin -- and not in what this Country really needs right now?  Do I want to vote for someone who waffles on a woman's Right to Choose, insisting she speak with her Pastor, Husband or Father before deciding?  And do I want to vote for someone who believes it's okay to campaign with a blatantly homophobic man while still somehow expecting the GLBT community to just turn the other cheek and give him their vote anyway?

    Because to bite my tongue, close my eyes and pull the lever for Obama is to vote for all of that and that's not what I want to support.  My vote gives tacit permission for all of the above to continue, that it's somehow all "okay" and I just won't do it.

    Had the DNC and Pelosi/Reid stayed out of the Primary, I might feel differently.  But their desperation for Hillary to drop out and for The One to be, you know, the one was the last straw on top of a mountain of straws.

    Parent

    it would get interesting (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:18:37 AM EST
    if Obama chose Kaine (anti-choice) and McCain chose Ridge (pro-choice)


    Parent
    Well, (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Grace on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:22:55 AM EST
    Do I want to vote for an American Idol Candidate

    Can you text in your vote?  Can you vote 100,000 times in a four hour period?  Can you vote via Skype even though you're outside the USA?  I'm sure, if the DNC could arrange for those conditions, Obama would win by a gazillion votes!  

    Parent

    free beer? (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by Nasarius on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:46:16 AM EST
    Crap. And I was considering going to his speech in Berlin, seeing as I'm living there now, but I'm still burned out on the huge crowd thing after going to the EM finale at the Brandenburger Tor. But free food and beer? Damn, I should've gone.

    Parent
    Certainly Makes My Voting Decision Easier (5.00 / 4) (#166)
    by BDB on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:02:05 PM EST
    I've been struggling with trying to bring myself to vote for Obama, especially after FISA.  But if he selects an anti-abortion Democrat or Republian as his running mate, that will end my struggle.  No way I'm voting for any ticket with either of those.  

    First, I don't vote for Republicans, even if they have a (D) after their name.

    Second, I also don't vote for people hostile to reproductive rights to national office and help propel them to the top of the political party that's supposed to be fighting for my rights.  Beyond setting Kaine up as a future contender for the POTUS nomination, it also sends a pretty clear signal that the Democratic Party under Obama will not fight for my rights but will instead treat them as yet another thing to be compromised (not that their repeated caving on my rights wasn't already sending that signal).  

    Parent

    Where did you get the idea (5.00 / 0) (#199)
    by nr22 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:30:33 PM EST
    How long would any of us wear a yellow badge ... (none / 0) (#178)
    by Ellie on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:17:08 PM EST
    ... with a Star of David, or ask someone else to, just for the sake of getting people elected whilst not angering the Currently Quiet Beast.

    Or pester them to just frickin wear the Mauve Triangle and/or whatever the 'Lucky Charm' is to shunt women into a lower caste? (A Pink Marshmallow Uterus, perhaps?)

    It's not just transiently wrong but wrong enough to "risk" an election on. Some things you just don't wave through and let pass.

    It's worse to let Obama go unchecked on his egregious bigotry, worse to accept this heinous disgrace. It ups the temperature of the water in which we frogs are boiling.

    Speaking for me only, I won't do it. It's a deal-breaker.

    Parent

    I hope it's Clinton (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Faust on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:44:24 AM EST
    The ONLY reason not to pick Clinton is the danger of the media becomming vicious. With the deep historical well of Clinton/Gore hatred in the media, it seems to me a genuine concern that it might be reactivated. Certainly there has been no excitment for a Obama/Clinton ticket in virtually any media, the blogosphere included. I do not believe that would change.

    Still I would like to seem him try it, especially since I think all the other choices being suggested are seriously lame.

    Clinton had the audacity (5.00 / 5) (#36)
    by samanthasmom on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:57:19 AM EST
    to suggest that she is more qualified to be POTUS than Obama is, and 18,000,000 of us agree with her. He won't admit he needs her or us. He'll choose his running mate without taking her supporters into consideration because we have demonstrated that we "lack judgment". It won't matter to him if his choice, whether it's someone like Sebelius or Kaine, angers us because we'll come around before November because we have "nowhere else to go". I think it's going to be snowing here in the Boston area on election day, and I don't like to go out in bad weather. Too bad my congresswoman took money from Obama and didn't support the candidate her constituents did. No reason to go out in bad weather for her either. And to stay home instead of going out to vote for John Kerry wouldn't require an excuse.

    Parent
    Your congresswoman? (none / 0) (#60)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:12:35 AM EST
    In the Boston area?  There are no women on the Mass. congressional delegation.  What are you talking about?


    Parent
    Nikki Tsongsas (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by samanthasmom on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:21:34 AM EST
    5th Congressional District.  This one pains me - she is a personal friend.

    Parent
    And yes, my keyboard is old (none / 0) (#110)
    by samanthasmom on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:32:50 AM EST
    and some of the keys stick.  Niki Tsongas

    Parent
    Really now... (none / 0) (#98)
    by mwb on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:27:30 AM EST
    Congresswoman Niki Tsongas who has served the people of Massachusetts in the US House of Representatives for over 10 years would be shocked to hear she is not a woman.  

    Parent
    Actually, Tsongas (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by samanthasmom on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:31:15 AM EST
    has only been in office since 2007 when Marty Meehan resigned. I helped her get elected. She's on her own this time.

    Parent
    How does the media get vicious toward (5.00 / 7) (#40)
    by Anne on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:58:31 AM EST
    Clinton as VP without risking damage to their hearts' desire - Obama?  Seems to me that unless the media is just head-faking their lust for an Obama presidency - which is always possible - they pretty much have no choice but to lay off the primary-style negative coverage of Clinton if she is the VP.

    The McCain campaign is going to slam Obama no matter who his VP choice is - that's a given - so one unknown is whether the media love for Obama continues, and the other is whether the voters will still be listening to the media.  

    Based on the Dana Milbank story in today's WaPo, it may be that the Obama tide is beginning to shift a little more toward the negative, and that may make the Obama campaign go for someone so bland as to be nearly invisible.

    Parent

    Anne, you don't understand (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:15:23 AM EST
    how the media works.  However much they may sound like it some days, they are not an organized advocacy group.  They adore Obama, but their greatest joy of all is talking about the evil/clever Clintons in great detail.  The best storyline they could have in their lifetimes is Hillary undermining Barack, and they would look for it in every word she says, and whether the color of her pantsuit clashes with his tie, even.


    Parent
    Oh, I know they're not organized, (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by Anne on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:44:18 AM EST
    but they seem only ever to talk or listen to each other, existing within their own special bubble, with the result that they all eventually seem to be saying the same things and hawking the same memes to the audience.

    It's clear they can't stand the Clintons, being wholly unapologetic for their primary coverage and the rampant and blatant sexism, and I can see them hedging on anything that resembles truly positive coverage of her - but I also think that if they are determined that Obama is elected, as I think they were determined that Bush be elected, they will have to rein themselves in.

    I still just do not get what the media see in Obama, but then again, these are the same people that failed to challenge Bush when he was a candidate, and failed to ask real questions about Iraq, or properly cover any of a laundry list of issues that should have been the subject of thorough coverage, so I suppose that says it all.

    Parent

    Actually, the media is biased against Obama (5.00 / 0) (#200)
    by nr22 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:35:25 PM EST
    He's gotten more negative coverage than McCain.

    Just, you know, to add some facts to the discussion.

    Parent

    Beg to differ strongly (none / 0) (#59)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:10:28 AM EST
    There was quite a great deal of enthusiasm in the MSM for an Obama/Clinton ticket-- "Unity ticket," doncha know.  That's only faded since it became pretty clear he wasn't going to pick her.  The MSM would swoon for an Obama/Clinton ticket.

    And then they would spend the next however many weeks to the election looking for any little thing she said or did to examine in minute detail for hints that she was undermining him.

    But picking Hillary would be the icing on the cake of their adoration of Obama because it would show how big and confident a guy he was, in their minds, to embrace the candidate who ran so strongly against him.

    Parent

    Well frankly (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by Faust on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:36:38 AM EST
    making it "clear" that he isn't going to pick here is good prep for picking her.

    The single most dangerous meme in an Obama/Clinton ticket is the "nutcrakcer" meme attatched to Hillary. If it looked like Clinton "forced" Obama to put her on the ticket there would have been great danger of the MoDos of the world discusssing how Obama is being emasculated by the nutcracking Hillary. Comming out with a suprise pick of Hillary at the last minute would be the best way of undercutting the potential for this narrative.

    Now I'm not saying he's going to pick her, but if he was going to, massive misdirection before the pick is actually pretty good tactics, and would give the most room for the media to frame the pick differently.

    The most important thing to remember (and I get the sense that you understand this) is that the media can frame this stuff however it wants to. And of course it doesn't "plan it out" necessarily. They will go with whatever narrative has the best "flavor" and sells the most, provided that said narratives fit firmly within the established dominant discourses.

    Parent

    How will two (5.00 / 0) (#15)
    by pie on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:46:56 AM EST
    relative newbies represent the face of experience?

    What a disaster.

    IMO there is no new politics (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Saul on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:50:37 AM EST
    Obama has tarnished the initial image that he is a new type of politician.  As far as I am concerned he has shown on too many occasions that he is just like any other politician who has been in DC for a along time. He has show how he can be the old style politician.    I wish that he would just wipe that out of his campaign theme and get over it since it not really there anymore.

    Hilary is his only slam dunk election proof card in his deck and if he picks her then what was all this baloney about the Clinton's that they represent the past,and that they are representative of the old type of politics.  The morale of the story will be if he does pick her is that there was nothing wrong with the old type of politics and all his hype and rhetoric against it will be just that hype.

    In the minds of some of his supporters.. (none / 0) (#45)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:00:13 AM EST
    ...including his biggest cheerleaders in the media, he hasn't tarnished his image as a "new politician" at all. The only thing that would do that in their eyes is choosing Hillary Clinton as a running mate.

    Parent
    If he does not choose Hillary (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by BarnBabe on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:25:35 AM EST
    Doesn't that also say he is too insecure to pick a strong experienced woman? If he has the smarts and the guts to pick her, then he gets my vote. If he picks a Anti Choice candidate, that throws the SCOTUS argument out the window. If he picks Biden, Jeralyn won't vote for him but he might pick up some older voters who know the name and it gives Obama experience on the ticket. If he picks another inexperienced or little experienced person, that will frighten people as the stakes are too high. His only choice for the best candidate for the VP slot is Hillary. I hate her taking 2nd place, but at least I know the country will have a chance of getting repaired in the next 4 years.  

    Parent
    The only one who brings any (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Radiowalla on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:17:16 AM EST
    excitement, pizzaz and 18 million proven voters is Hillary Clinton.  It would be an act of courage and maturity for Obama to pick her.
    Loud choruses of "Ho-Hum" will greet the announcement of Kaine, Bayh or Biden.

    the very forces that helped push hillary (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by hellothere on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:18:48 AM EST
    away from the nomination will be out in force regarding the veep nomination. besides shooting themselves in the feet regularly, what else have they (democratic leadership) done?

    Parent
    it really makes little (5.00 / 4) (#84)
    by cpinva on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:22:24 AM EST
    difference who obama picks, ultimately it's still obama on the top of the ticket. sadly, he's product that didn't sell in the dem states, to actual dems. his expiration date is nearing, he just doesn't realize it yet.

    i wouldn't vote for an obama/clinton ticket, i'd still write-in clinton for prez. with regards to kaine, he's also anti death penalty, for the same reason he's anti choice: his catholic background. however, to his credit, he was up-front about both, and stated that he would follow the law as gov., not his personal convictions.

    frankly, after his disgraceful primary act, obama is dead to me.

    if you are going with a write-in (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:42:29 AM EST
    the you should probably check the ROOLZ in your area to see whether they actually tally write-ins up.  In some states, I think you have to use an absentee ballot for a write-in to get recorded.  And if I were going to write in Clinton's name, I would certainly want it to show up in the totals and not just be ignored.

    Parent
    Writing-In (none / 0) (#174)
    by JimWash08 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:13:25 PM EST
    Yes, Tim is right. Sorta.

    The thing is, I've been told, that Hillary Clinton herself also has to register as a Write-In candidate* for a vote to be considered in her name.

    If not, all write-in votes for her will go automatically to the registered Democratic nominee -- Obama. :(

    *(Don't think she will do it, unfortunately)

    Parent

    you mean the DNC has figured out a way (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:19:47 PM EST
     to give Obama votes in the general election that he didn't really get too?  I thought that only worked in Michigan.

    How can they do that?  Just because the write-in is also a dem?

    Get out the word, because you know those who write-in Clinton don't want their vote going to Obama.  That's just crazy......

    Parent

    Forget do no harm, these VPs will... (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Dadler on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:28:23 AM EST
    ...DO NOTHING.

    Not picking the BEST woman (5.00 / 5) (#127)
    by Jjc2008 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:43:25 AM EST
    available is just stupid.  The democrats NEED to show women that we matter.   They have asked us to be the workhorses of the party for decades.  We have been shut out from the "upper echelon" of the party for decades with the exception of a few hand picked women who will NOT show their evil, ambitious side.

    The people who insist feminists who insist on Hillary are not being true feminists are truly ignorant.  MOST women see Hillary as the best and brightest representing US.  For them to say "any woman except Hillary"  it conservative paternalistic, talking down.  It's how you talk to a child who is making a choice with which you do not agree because perhaps it is not good for them. So you distract them with other choices.  But here's the thing some (Dean and DLC) don't get: women are NOT children and we don't need them making the choice for us.  We have clearly told them who with think is the best.  It's Hillary.  She and Obama were at best splitting the electorate; in reality she won for many of us.  But they fear our voices; they fear our power; they need to get over themselves.

    When kos and friends insist McCaskill and Sebilius, two conservative women from conservative states, are better than the woman who they trashed for being not progressive, liberal enough it speaks volumes.  Hillary scares some men....a lot of those who post at certain blogs and who have been trashing Hillary Clinton from the beginning are insecure, weak men who shake at the prospect of a strong, intelligent women showing them up.

    McCaskill is conservative. (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by Ramo on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:55:40 AM EST
    Napalitano, for that matter, seems pretty conservative too.  

    I don't see what justification you're using to call Sebelius conservative.

    Parent

    I do know this (5.00 / 2) (#190)
    by Jjc2008 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:24:08 PM EST
    Her husband is the son of a former republican congressman.  Two of her running mates were former republicans.  She was raised catholic (so was I and in my view these days catholics seem to me to be more and more conservative), and is "personally pro life."  

    Kansas is a hugely conservative state.  I don't see anyone who is far to the left of center being elected there.  

    Keep in mind comparison is reference to the anti Clinton, "she's too centrist" progressives who have hammered Hillary Clinton not being "progressive and liberal" enough but Selibus is just fine.

    Where is she to the left of Hillary?

    Parent

    Sebelius is clearly the progressive choice... (5.00 / 0) (#150)
    by Ramo on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:51:19 AM EST
    ... among the folks in the extra short list.

    As Governor of KS, she has been a steadfast supporter of the right to choose.  She stood up to big coal and the health insurance industry.  She has a remarkable ability to exploit cleavages in the GOP, converting Republicans to Democrats (i.e. John Moore, Mark Parkinson, and Paul Morrison).  And was re-elected by a landslide margin of 18%.

    Does anyone really think that Tim Kaine could hold a candle to that record?

    And we're going to disqualify her because she's a woman?  Seriously?  Totally ridiculous.

    Actually she wasn't disqualified because she's a (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by cawaltz on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:05:28 PM EST
    woman. However, picking a woman that isn't Hillary and doesn't have much charisma(Did you see her response to the State of the Union?)is a no go from where I'm sitting.

    Parent
    The SOTU response... (none / 0) (#172)
    by Ramo on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:11:43 PM EST
    ... is almost never good.  It's a speech written by soulless party hacks delivered without a live audience in some sort of hunting lodge.  Kaine's SOTU response was equally awful.  The only person, as far as I know, who did anything with it was Jim Webb.

    Have you seen Sebelius give a speech in other settings?  She's pretty good IMO (albeit not spectacular).

    And no, I'm not particularly concerned about charisma.  I think Obama has plenty for the entire ticket.

    Parent

    This is who I support since (none / 0) (#161)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:58:32 AM EST
    there are people who dislike Obama so much that my preference for "Unity Ticket" doesn't seem to be getting much traction among fellow Hillary supporters. There's just no reason to pick her if he can't garner her supporters.

    Parent
    There are many of us who (5.00 / 2) (#195)
    by Jjc2008 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:28:11 PM EST
    DO NOT DISLIKE Obama.  He's certainly a dem, and I believe a good man, albeit an inexperienced one who has not given me the confidence he can take on the job.

    However (many of) his supporters are a different story.  The ageism and sexism displayed by many of his netroots adoration club have really alienated many.

    Parent

    maybe.... (5.00 / 8) (#154)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:54:25 AM EST
    statements made like "fairytale" would not have been seen as racist if people like Michelle Obama and Donna Brazile hadn't deliberately taken thee statement out of context to make it something that it wasn't.  Do ya think, maybe?

    maybe if Obama's camp had handled talk of his drug use the same way GW did in 2000 by saying I was young and stupid and won't discuss it further, then talk of Obama's drug use would not have been seen as racist.  Because calling it racist when it was OK to talk about it with Bill Clinton and GW tends to make the case that Obama must be the "affirmative action" candidate.

    and, as the other poster has said, every example you can cite, can be explained in a non racila way.  But, it was Obama's plan all along to play the race card against Clinton in order to win.  Because the only way for him to beat her was to take away her support in the black community.

    nope, won't hold my nose (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:56:17 AM EST
    because all it will do is reward the "methods" that were used to get Obama to "win" as you like to describe it.

    I think we missed it (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by cmugirl on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:12:12 PM EST
    Apparently Obama has been elected already and must have already named his VP choice.  I think I worked too hard this summer and missed the news, but Dana Milbank is catching me up.

    Link

    Go Away Goes Both Ways (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by daring grace on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:14:12 PM EST
    The primaries ARE over and repeating and re-fighting its arguments is pointless for both sides.

    So maybe those on both sides who still want to raise these old wounds should, as you say, go away.

    Works for me.

    Hillary did not turn down the spot. (5.00 / 2) (#189)
    by masslib on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:22:31 PM EST
    It wasn't offered.  I am sure she would have accepted, if offered.

    Here's the link (none / 0) (#197)
    by chezmadame on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:29:32 PM EST
    make of it what you will. Hillary's a party player. If she turned down the spot, she'd let Obama save face.

    http://hillbuzz.wordpress.com/?s=hillary+turns+down+vp&submit=Search

    Parent

    Daschle. Yup...could be. (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by oldpro on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:35:57 PM EST
    For lots of reasons but primarily because he is Obama's "Cheney"...hilarious that Trapper John doesn't think Daschle has any presidential ambitions!  

    Riiiiiight!

    I doubt picking Clinton (4.62 / 8) (#8)
    by ccpup on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:43:01 AM EST
    will energize her supporters and her fundraisers enough to make a difference.  
    The ship we all could have shared for a ride into the White House sailed a long time ago.  To assume that putting her in the #2 spot will be enough to mollify those millions who were angered by the DNC's shameful actions or by the Party Leaders insisting Hillary drop out even though she was winning the Big Contests is taking quite a big leap.  It's a bit like expecting all of us to "get over it" and vote for him if she's given the Booby Prize of being The One's lap-dog/scapegoat.

    Even with Hillary as VP, I know many -- myself included -- who will still choose to sit this Election out.  The potential of an Obama loss in November is the only way to push Dean and Brazile out of the DNC and, perhaps, shake up the Dem Party enough to force real Change.

    Or at least Change I Can Believe In.


    dont agree. (5.00 / 0) (#13)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:45:46 AM EST
    we might not be "energized" but we might vote.


    Parent
    the voter is energized but not in the way (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by hellothere on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:09:13 AM EST
    those who consider themselves democratic leaders might like.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by Emma on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:47:22 AM EST
    I don't believe I'll be able to vote for Clinton in the VP slot.  It will kill me, as Samanthasmom pointed out in the other thread.  But I do believe I'd have to pass up that ticket.  I would, perhaps foolishly, pin my hopes on Clinton 2012.  I know I shouldn't, I know Clinton would say don't do it, but I can't give up on her in the oval office.

    Parent
    Adding (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Emma on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:48:50 AM EST
    Clinton in the VP slot is the only thing that could make me even think about voting for Obama at this point.  But, I don't think it would get me to pull the lever.

    Parent
    C'mon yall.... (5.00 / 0) (#28)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:53:01 AM EST
    Hillary is on record saying she would accept. Whatever Hill is for regarding the ticket, I'm for!!!

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by Mike H on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:49:15 AM EST
    If Clinton is the VP, I would almost certainly vote for Obama-Clinton.

    It's highly unlikely I'll vote for Obama with any other pick.

    I feel that with her as VP the ticket would regain some much-needed liberal and economic validity that it is sorely lacking.  It will also force recognition and respect of the role the Clintons have played, and will continue to play, in a successful democratic party.

    Parent

    Emma, I'd like to think that I won't be seduced. (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:58:18 AM EST
    But the truth is that if he picked Clinton I know I would be energized in spite of all my reservations. That said, I realize that the likelihood of her being on the ticket is less than zero. I don't think that he would let all these snarky stories about how little they are considering her stand uncontested if there were even an iota of a chance she is being considered.

    Parent
    Who knows (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Emma on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:04:32 AM EST
    what the future will bring.  If she was on the ticket, I can't be entirely sure of my reaction.  But the thought of her on the ticket is the only thing that makes me feel the least bit conflicted about not voting for Obama.

    Parent
    It is the ONLY (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by oldpro on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:44:27 AM EST
    way I would consider voting for Obama.

    Parent
    And good GOD! (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Emma on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:49:57 AM EST
    ANYTHING, and I do mean ANY. THING. to get Donna Brazile the f*ck out of the Dem Party.

    Parent
    that will take strong muscle bound men with (none / 0) (#54)
    by hellothere on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:08:33 AM EST
    deep resolve to get brazile out of the party. snark!

    Parent
    Gee, I hadn't thought of it .... (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:53:37 AM EST
    I have benn sating I would vote for Obama with Clinton as the VP.  But, now I think i should add to my requirements that along with making Hillary the VP. I also want Brazile and Dean drummed out of the DNC.  Then I will vote for the ticket and GIVE THEM MONEY.

    In fact, if they take the convention blogging credentials for Denver away from Huffington, KOS and Aravosis, I'll max out the $2300 for the ticket and give to the DNC and DSCC too.

    Parent

    I had been donating (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by ccpup on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:10:03 AM EST
    regularly to the DNC and, in light of Dean and Brazile's antics, I instructed my accountant to discontinue my giving and had my T&E attorney strip all future gifts to them from my Will.

    A week after the first payment didn't show up, we got a call from someone at the DNC wanting us to know the donation hadn't come through.  My accountant said that it wouldn't be as I was immediately discontinuing my giving.  When asked "why?" he responded "Dean and Brazile".

    "She sighed and thanked us for our past support", he then told me.  "As if she had heard it a million times".

    When Obama loses in November, anticipate a major house-cleaning at the DNC.  


    Parent

    Potential Name Conflicts (4.00 / 4) (#74)
    by blogtopus on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:17:04 AM EST
    Obama + Kaine = Obamacain, the product to help numb you to what is going wrong in D.C!

    I'd LOVE to do a fake product design based on that. Go Kaine!

    Oil drilling as October surprise (1.00 / 1) (#148)
    by MKS on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:50:57 AM EST
    Hillary could be VP...A strong voice on the economy is needed.   If Bill were amenable to disclosing his library donors, it could be possible...

    I dont think (5.00 / 2) (#153)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:53:18 AM EST
    anyone but the cheeto brigades care about Bill library donations.

    Parent
    I agree completely (1.00 / 0) (#208)
    by Miri on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 08:56:37 PM EST
    "Even with Hillary as VP, I know many -- myself included -- who will still choose to sit this Election out.  The potential of an Obama loss in November is the only way to push Dean and Brazile out of the DNC and, perhaps, shake up the Dem Party enough to force real Change."

    It would be painful for me to watch Hillary as a VP candidate. She is so much more qualified than him. A qualified women playing second fiddle to an unqualified man would be too painful.

    Democratic party needs to relearn the lessons of the McGovern defeat. They have once again become the party of the liberal elites. They have open contempt for the working class in this country.

    For that to happen we need an Obama defeat.

    Rock and a hard place (none / 0) (#5)
    by Lahdee on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:40:48 AM EST
    but isn't that what we pay Obama for? Sadly I agree it may be Kaine. IMO it's riskier than Bayh or even Clinton because of Kaine's severely limited national political resume. The republicans believe that they have found an issue with the gas price nonsense they have trotted out at local and national level, they may get another with the relative inexperience of a Obama/Kaine ticket.

    I'd agree on the inexperience (5.00 / 0) (#14)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:45:51 AM EST
    I just think Kaine's resume is way to short to be the choice of a candidate who's already suspect in that department. Bayh may be a dull choice, but he has been both a governor and a senator, and has won multiple elections in a conservative state. He certainly strikes me as the candidate who creates the fewest issues.

    Of course, I'd still choose Hillary. But I do think it's Obama's prerogative to not have to run with someone he doesn't want to run or govern with.

    Parent

    Why do people assume... (5.00 / 4) (#58)
    by p lukasiak on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:10:14 AM EST
    that Clinton wants the job?

    I'd like to suggest that she told Obama privately not to consider her (which would explain the "Clinton is not being vetted story) but isn't publicly saying so because it would look bad -- and she knew that if she said "no VP slot" that she had no chance of raising money to pay off her debt from the Obama supporters (turns out, or course, that they aren't "unity ponying" up anyway).  

    I mean, if you were Hillary Clinton, would you want to be Obama's running mate?

    Parent

    short answer-no, she doesn't. (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by hellothere on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:14:56 AM EST
    I love short answers (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:23:40 AM EST
    If Hillary said she didn't want to be Obama's VP, (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by jawbone on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:29:02 AM EST
    she would be savaged by the MCM for undermining Obama, for being Sore Loserwoman (phrase used in honor of Gore and how the MCM and Repubs talked about him during the FL recount), and probably have being racist thrown in for good measure.

    Silence in this situation is golden.

    And, again, I want her in the Senate as a full-throated NY liberal senator, The Lioness of the Senate, guarding our rights, Dem Pary true principles, and guiding Obama's judiciary choices.

    I want her to get universal healthcare on the freakin' table, at least.

    We're not going to have a lot of representation, and VP's notoriously don't do that much (unless they've got confident P's like Clinton or are puppeted by someone like Cheney--neither of which would be the situation with Obama), so we need strong lib voices somewhere in the tripartite government.  Think we can look to Speaker Pelosis to guard our civil liberties???

    Parent

    You know... (5.00 / 2) (#152)
    by Mike H on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:52:42 AM EST
    There's part of me that likes the dynamic of a strong, liberal Senator Clinton giving grief to a weak, overly conservative President Obama.

    Remember that President Clinton was often bedeviled by members of his own party... would serve the DNC right if this happened!

    Parent

    Exactly. She could lead the loyal (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by MarkL on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:54:29 AM EST
    opposition (to Obama) in Congress.

    Parent
    Um... (none / 0) (#22)
    by pie on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:49:33 AM EST
    How well do you think Bush and Cheney get along?  Bush didn't pick him either, btw.

    Parent
    It's also his prerogative... (5.00 / 0) (#32)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:55:40 AM EST
    ... to pick someone he doesn't really get along with, if that's what he thinks is best. I'm just not going to knock him for passing on Hillary, even though she's who I would pick. It's his choice.

    Parent
    In 1956, JFKJ lost the VP slot at the convention (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by BarnBabe on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:32:02 AM EST
    There was a time that the delegates choose the VP slot. In 1960, JFK ran for the top spot and choose Johnson as his running mate. That changed things. Now, everything is planned for the convention to go off without a hitch. Boring for sure.  

    Parent
    His prerogative? (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by pie on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:32:40 AM EST
    No.  It'll be his choice when his campaign determines who best will help him in November.  It'll be his choice when they all agreee about the choice.

    Parent
    Kaine? (none / 0) (#7)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:42:59 AM EST
    I think he could be considered to do some harm but supporting the "too little experience" idea.

    I think Daschle is just the type of person Obama would go with and he's certainly been a big booster which I think counts for a lot with Obama.  Biden and Bayh are good bets.

    But these things are often surprises, and I wouldn't put it past Obama to produce a running mate that isn't even in the discussion at this point.

    As for Clinton, although it would certainly serve to unify the party and mollify her supporters as you state, I think it would also do some harm in the following ways:

    1. She'd have to keep awfully quiet or she'd run the risk of eclipsing him on policy and the like.

    2. She still does have baggage.

    3. Many people might see it as a case of his having to choose her -- that is, weakness on his part.


    Oh, I think if Obama picks Clinton (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:24:42 AM EST
    it will show he is a manly man who is confident he can not only keep the little woman in line, but also her volatile spouse.

    Parent
    Maybe (none / 0) (#43)
    by lilburro on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:59:28 AM EST
    some Clinton haters would be happy to know she is staying put in the VP position for 4-8 years.  This would mollify the 2012 primary run fears (not that Obama really needs to assuage those people).  

    Keep your friends close and enemies closer, as they say...

    Parent

    Bloomberg? (none / 0) (#9)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:44:10 AM EST
    not really much of a Bloomberg fan but he would be an interesting extra-party choice.
    and it is boring enough to not upstage him.

    PPS. (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:29:32 AM EST
    And, the explosion over at dKos might well obliterate the city of Berkeley.  Kos hate, hate, hates Bloomberg, having condemned him as one of those "New York money liberals" who are always mucking up the Democratic Party.

    Parent
    OMG (5.00 / 4) (#113)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:36:10 AM EST
    I found my candidate

    Parent
    I was on his mailing list (none / 0) (#163)
    by cannondaddy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:59:21 AM EST
    when there was talk of him running.

    Parent
    Ummm....Larry? (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by oldpro on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:00:40 PM EST
    Isn't "New York money liberals" longhand for "Jews?"

    The DK disease is beginning to infect other sites through quotation, if nothing else.

    Parent

    Nah. . . (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:18:08 PM EST
    Markos slagging off an historic part of the grand liberal coalition?  Who would imagine he'd do anything like that.  He's always been very nice, for instance, to the "women's studies crowd".  Wink, wink.

    Parent
    I forgot about Bloomberg! (none / 0) (#24)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:49:52 AM EST
    One of his upsides is he's Jewish. One of his downsides is he's Jewish. Any other negatives?

    Parent
    Well.... (none / 0) (#30)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:53:40 AM EST
    ... he is, I believe, 66, so he wouldn't be a potential heir apparent. And he's been his own boss his entire life, so I'm not sure how interested in being an understudy.

    On the upside, he could write a check that effectively ends the race.

    Parent

    I actually think that might help Obama (none / 0) (#31)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:53:58 AM EST
    Bloomberg would be my choice. (none / 0) (#71)
    by cannondaddy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:15:42 AM EST
    Socially liberal, fiscally conservative (oxymoron, maybe that should be fiscally responsible) not from Washington, runs a municipality that's more challenging than running most states.  I would actually consider McCain if he was running with Bloomberg...if Obama chose Clinton.

    Parent
    Bloomberg is, in fact. . . (none / 0) (#97)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:27:20 AM EST
    fiscally responsible, rather than fiscally conservative.  Although he supports low taxes on business he supports high marginal tax rates for income and has actually effectuated some income redistribution in New York City (already fairly progressive in its tax structure) as mayor.

    Except for the fact that he was, technically, a Republican for a while, Bloomberg comes closer to the ideal of progressive, liberal governance than anyone else I can think of.

    Parent

    Is Bloomberg respected by Israel? (none / 0) (#112)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:33:58 AM EST
    [Huff Post headline says Obama opined if current peace negotiations are not successful, Israel will attack Iran.  WTF did he say that for?]

    Parent
    Can you give me a link? That (none / 0) (#115)
    by MarkL on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:36:43 AM EST
    is appalling, if accurate.


    Parent
    Go to Huffington Post. (none / 0) (#118)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:37:56 AM EST
    P.S.  I only read the headline, which is frequently inaccurate.

    Parent
    I did, and there was no such link. (none / 0) (#121)
    by MarkL on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:39:21 AM EST
    Here's the link, but I got the (none / 0) (#124)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:42:36 AM EST
    headline wrong.  "If sanctions fail, . . ."

    OBAMA

    Parent

    Thanks. This really proves how much more (none / 0) (#132)
    by MarkL on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:44:29 AM EST
    hawkish Obama is than Clinton---and foolish, IMO.
    Threatening to invade Pakistan (more like promising to do so), and now this.

    Parent
    To me, it also indicates Obama (none / 0) (#134)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:45:30 AM EST
    doesn't necessarily think before he speaks.  

    Parent
    Oh yes, definitely. (none / 0) (#139)
    by MarkL on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:46:27 AM EST
    weird (none / 0) (#142)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:47:27 AM EST
    I saw it this morning too.
    scrub scrub scrub

    Parent
    I assume so. . . (none / 0) (#120)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:39:06 AM EST
    he's certainly pro-Israel and has done lots of philanthropy over there.

    Parent
    attacking Israel (none / 0) (#135)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:45:34 AM EST
    not news.  Dick Morris is saying the same thing.  Dick says it will be to help McCain get elected.  
    maybe that why O is bringing it up.


    Parent
    um, attacking Iran. (none / 0) (#137)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:46:14 AM EST
    I heard a mid-east expert make a similar claim (none / 0) (#140)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:46:30 AM EST
    last week.  He said Israel will certainly take-out Iran's nuke capability within the next year and a half.  He also said there would be two events that could stop them from doing it.

    1.  Iran verifiably does away with their capability on their own.

    2. the US takes it out so Israel doesn't have to.


    Parent
    Do you think Obama should be saying (none / 0) (#145)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:49:03 AM EST
    this in Congress at this point?  

    Parent
    don't worry about it (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:03:18 PM EST
    if you don't like what Obama said one day, just wait til the next day (or maybe the nexthour) and he'll say the opposite and tell you he never said the first anyway.

    Parent
    or, according to Morris (none / 0) (#149)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:51:06 AM EST
    if it looks like McCain will win.

    Parent
    My favorite subject. (none / 0) (#87)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:23:20 AM EST
    I think Bloomberg would make a great VP (or President, for that matter).

    The problem is that he's well to the left of Obama on most issues.  All the people whose names are being bruited about are to the right of Obama.  While Bloomberg sort of contributes to the unity-schtick idea (having been a Democrat, a Republican, and an Independent all in the last decade) I think Obama wants a center / center-right Democrat from the "heartland".

    If you think about it, the idea that Obama would conceivably run with anyone other than a white, anglo-saxon, protestant male is extremely audacious in and of itself, and the fact that women, catholics, hispanics, and jews are even being talked about is a measure of how far I think we've come in this campaign already -- in a good way.

    Parent

    What is Bloomberg to (none / 0) (#104)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:29:17 AM EST
    the left of Obama on? Other than his pro-choice stance and the fact that he's richer than God, I don't know too much about him.

    Parent
    He supports. . . (none / 0) (#117)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:37:13 AM EST
    gay marriage, abortion rights (without qualification), single-payer. . .

    Parent
    Bloomberg/Clinton or Clinton/Bloomberg. (none / 0) (#119)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:38:33 AM EST
    Sorry. (none / 0) (#122)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:40:24 AM EST
    They have to be from different states (and the fact that neither is originally from New York doesn't count).

    Parent
    Well, when we vote for president (none / 0) (#143)
    by zfran on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:48:06 AM EST
    we do not follow amendment 12 of the constitution (at least as I read it)which deals with electing a president and vice president, so why should we follow the constitution on whether the candidates have to be from different states?

    Parent
    PS. (none / 0) (#89)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:24:14 AM EST
    It would be worth having Bloomberg on the ticket, if only see BTD's head explode.

    Parent
    which ticket? McCain-Bloomberg would (none / 0) (#93)
    by MarkL on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:25:44 AM EST
    be a great ticket.

    Parent
    Web cam? (none / 0) (#94)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:25:53 AM EST
    You tube. n/t (none / 0) (#99)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:27:52 AM EST
    Mornin yall! (none / 0) (#17)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:47:32 AM EST
    I could be wrong, but I think the so-called "final three" is hogwash. They are all flawed on core Dem issues. I wouldn't be surprised if these are trial ballons. The only ones who have generated any significant buzz or passion are Clinton, Sebelius, and Webb (who's out).  

    Are you kidding? (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by Democratic Cat on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:20:12 AM EST
    We have a POTUS candidate who is flawed on core democratic issues, IMO.  Why would that disqualify a VP candidate?

    Parent
    Webb has (none / 0) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:48:44 AM EST
    said categorically no.

    Parent
    (morning) (none / 0) (#21)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:49:01 AM EST
    Indiana (none / 0) (#33)
    by BronxFem on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:56:13 AM EST
    My hunch is that Barack will pick Bayh.  He needs Indiana more than he needs Virginia.  Bayh has more political experience than Kaine does.

    Bayh? Yuck. (5.00 / 0) (#42)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:59:13 AM EST
    Bayh is the corporate candidate (none / 0) (#96)
    by shoephone on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:26:44 AM EST
    He is bought and paid for by the banking/credit/securities industries. I have no doubt that kind of fundraising appeals to the Obama camp very much.

    All three are terrible choices (Biden, IMO, is the least worst of the three).

    I've long thought that whomever became the nominee -- Obama, Clinton, Edwards -- the VP pick should be Schweitzer. Governor (exec. experience) of a western state where energy and the economy are always forefront issues; seemingly a straight-talker; appeals to the gun enthusiasts while otherwise fairly liberal...

    But what do I know?

    Parent

    Then....... (none / 0) (#157)
    by cawaltz on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:55:43 AM EST
    I expect Bayh will be his pick. Meet the old boss same as the new boss. Heckuva job Democratic Party. I don't know if I can stand 4 more years of corporations writing legislation to benefit themselves and making the taxpayers pay for theit idiotic decisions(that line their pockets at the expense of Joe Average).

    Parent
    Just for clarity's sake (none / 0) (#194)
    by shoephone on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:26:45 PM EST
    I don't dismiss the facts on Biden, who also rakes in the big bucks from banking and credit. I just think that Bayh has nothing else to offer the ticket besides the money. He is as bland as as yesterday's potatoes. What issues does he stand for? What is he passionate about? Maybe our Indiana resident can weigh in on this, because I come up blank.

    Parent
    If one of Biden's strengths is attack doc (none / 0) (#34)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:56:19 AM EST
    Clinton has pretty much proven that she can do that and would be able to wipe up the floor in any debate with McCain's VP pick whoever it is.

    Hey is anybody scared McCain (none / 0) (#35)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:57:10 AM EST
    is gonna pick Tom Ridge? That possibility is scary to me, but McCain doesn't have the guts.

    Wouldn't Ridge scare away some (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by zfran on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:00:09 AM EST
    conservatives. He's pretty moderate. What is scary about it, other than Ridge's inept color code system.

    Parent
    pro choice for one t hing (none / 0) (#48)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:02:31 AM EST
    Woohoo (none / 0) (#159)
    by cawaltz on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:57:32 AM EST
    I wonder if we can get a color code system for the state of the economy too!

    Ridge would be a horrible choice if that is his big accomplishment. It's laughable.

    Parent

    McCain (none / 0) (#46)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:00:47 AM EST
    is starting to remind me of an ancient crocodile laying in the mud and waiting.  
    dont be surprised at anything he does is my advise.

    Parent
    Ah, but on the contrary... (none / 0) (#52)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:06:20 AM EST
    Can anyone name ONE red state (not purple, red) that McCain would lose, and imo Penn. would then be in play.

    Parent
    if I were Obama (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by ccpup on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:14:08 AM EST
    I'd be worried about PA, MI, OH and definitely FL.  

    Three months and change is a long, l-o-n-g time in politics and, despite what the Polls say now (which, in my view, are nothing to brag about regardless of what side you're standing on), we have yet to hit the post-Convention period where things get messy.

    If Obama is squeaking out a single-digit win now with all of his Press and Adoring Crowds, what's going to happen when the inevitable shyte hits the fan and people go "oh, that's NOT who I thought he was!  Oh well" and decide to stay home Election Day?

    Parent

    I doubt Obama gets Florida (5.00 / 3) (#162)
    by cawaltz on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:59:11 AM EST
    He has a better shot at Ohio and maybe Pennsylvania. They screwed up big time with what they did top Florida Democrats.

    Parent
    I agree that Ridge would be a very good choice (none / 0) (#62)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:13:12 AM EST
    maybe even a winning choice.
    but I cant see it happening.  the wingers would freak.  and he needs them.  Ridge would be a long ball.  it might get him PN but lose him other states.

    Parent
    I suspect you're right. (none / 0) (#73)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:16:34 AM EST
    But don't underestimate the anti-Obama vote out there. It's as strong as the anti-Hill hate on the Rethug side.

    Parent
    LOL (none / 0) (#176)
    by oldpro on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:14:28 PM EST
    "on the Rethug side"...!

    Parent
    that's what I heard last night.... (none / 0) (#83)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:22:14 AM EST
    that if Obama makes a VP pick to put VA in play, McCain will make one to put PA in play.

    McCain has the luxury here of picking last because for some reason that I don't understand, the dems always hold their convention first.

    Parent

    like I said upthread (none / 0) (#95)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:26:00 AM EST
    Kaine (anti-choice) Ridge (pro-choice).
    buckle you seatbelts.

    Parent
    Ridge was a popular governor here (none / 0) (#128)
    by BarnBabe on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:43:55 AM EST
    Dems voted for him. As they do Specter. Ridge would bring Penna in for McCain I believe. And he looks the part too. This really would be interesting. I also think people saw Ridge being used in 2004 and his walking away from that position.

    Parent
    Sure sounds like Obama is a shoo-in. (none / 0) (#41)
    by MarkL on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:59:06 AM EST


    not exactly! the campaign has a long way (none / 0) (#63)
    by hellothere on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:13:27 AM EST
    to go.

    Parent
    Kaine is personally pro-life but (none / 0) (#51)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:05:40 AM EST
    he has been clear that he doesn't want to outlaw abortion or impose his views on others. He has supported parental notification for minors and banning "partial-birth". He is also anti-death penalty but has not stopped executions because he feels it's his duty to uphold the law. I just don't find him as scarey on choice as most but I can understand the concern. For Veep, it shouldn't be a deal-breaker, imo.

    Have you lowered (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by samanthasmom on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:17:54 AM EST
    your expectations about what being "pro-choice" means, or have you always been a "half a loaf is better than none" person? It's one thing to not let "the perfect be the enemy of the good", but it's another thing to always settle for "not as bad as". Someone who is personally "pro-life" may not try to get abortion outlawed, but look for him to try to chip away at the "whos, the wheres, and the whens".

    Parent
    Kerry said he was personally opposed to (none / 0) (#144)
    by MKS on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:48:46 AM EST
    abortion, and believed that life begins at conception, as a Catholic.

    Personal opinion does not matter; voting record does....

    Parent

    You're suggesting (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by samanthasmom on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:09:54 PM EST
    that Kerry was a good choice for people who are pro-choice. I don't agree. Once again, it's settling.

    Parent
    John Kerry (none / 0) (#185)
    by samanthasmom on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:21:34 PM EST
    actually said this,

    Q: Some Catholic archbishops said that it would be a sin to vote for a candidate like you because you support a woman's right to choose an abortion and unlimited stem-cell research. What is your reaction to that?

    A: I completely respect their views. I am a Catholic. And I grew up learning how to respect those views. But I disagree with them, as do many. I can't legislate or transfer to another American citizen my article of faith. What is an article of faith for me is not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith. I believe that choice is a woman's choice. It's between a woman, God and her doctor. That's why I support that. I will not allow somebody to come in and change Roe v. Wade.

    which implies that he is personally pro-choice in spite of being brought up Catholic. If he were really personally pro-life, then what I said before stands.  I am so fed up with John Kerry that if he said the sky was blue, I'd argue with him.

    Parent

    Interesting. Not a (none / 0) (#64)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:13:45 AM EST
    good pick if Obama is sincerely pro-choice.  

    Parent
    So, what does this tell us? n/t (none / 0) (#70)
    by jawbone on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:15:25 AM EST
    Kaine is personally "anti-choice" (none / 0) (#108)
    by abfabdem on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:32:23 AM EST
    A more accurate characterization.  Thanks!

    Parent
    Via Sideshow-analysis that Obama is focus of Obama (none / 0) (#66)
    by jawbone on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:14:39 AM EST
    campaign, not George Bush and the horrors of his Maladministrations. In that the public is deciding whether Obama is "safe" to be elected, and not how BushCo must be replaced and corrected.

    Steve Lombardo at Pollster.com raises the question, and Carol Avedon posted about it Tuesday.

    Over a month ago we said that the 2008 presidential race was becoming a referendum on Barack Obama. Now the polling data has confirmed our hypothesis, and national pundits have said much the same thing. Pause for a moment and consider how truly incredible and unlikely this is. We are six years into an unpopular war and smack in the middle of a modest recession. Every environmental voting factor suggests that this election should be about George Bush and his policies, NOT the Democrat. But to this point, this race is almost totally about Obama. The upside is that he is the talk of the nation and McCain is virtually invisible. The downside, though, is that the Democrats appear to have lost--or at least temporarily ceded--their most important weapon: anti-Bush sentiment.

    Lombardo thinks there may be time to go after Bush and tie him completely to McCain, but he is not sure.  

    Will Kaine do much to help Obama? Other than in VA? And take a Dem gov off the rolls, leaving in place a former Repub turned Dem? Wow. Talk about getting a twofer on the "bipartisanship" thing! An anti-aborter VP, replaced by a former Repub!

    i have read that kane won't do much for (none / 0) (#76)
    by hellothere on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:17:35 AM EST
    obama in virginia. he is not exactly a beloved governor like the last democrat.

    Parent
    HRC may anger Obama supporters (none / 0) (#81)
    by Porter71 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:20:47 AM EST
    It's pretty funny, but a lot of the complaints I hear on this board about Obama are the same things that I've felt about Clinton.  There are reasons that many of us Obama supporters ended up in his camp, and not hers.  And it's not because we're all sheep who were blinded by the flash of Obama.  Some of us, like me, haven't seen what the Clinton's as these great figures.  I have to be honest, the Clinton Presidency was a disappointment in my view, and HRC's comes across an a panderer in my view.  I really just didn't see the convictions with them.  I think this hurts the Obama brand if he embraces the people that many of his supporters were rallying against.  Just my take though.

    Right. The Reagan-Bush years were the (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by MarkL on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:22:37 AM EST
    pinnacle of American civilization.
    We too paid attention to Obama's message.

    Parent
    like Obama hasn't hurt (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:25:20 AM EST
    his own "brand" that was now apparently only his primary brand.  And the supporters are still there making excuses for him.  Don't you think you can come up with an excuse for him if he goes with Clinton?  They have for everything else.....

    Parent
    The one joy picking Clinton would give me (5.00 / 9) (#188)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:22:23 PM EST
    is being able to say 'get over it' to any single Obama supporters who objected.

    I find the 'Obama's supporters won't vote for him' if he picks her argument laughable.  Besides the fact that they'd vote for him if he ran with a loaf of bread, what about all the divisiveness crap that's been thrown at her supporters for not 'healing' fast enough, for not being 'real' Democrats, for not caring about SCOTUS or dead soldiers in Iraq etc ad nauseum.

    I'd just love the chance to say, 'What!?!!?  Do you WANT McCain to win!?!?!' in the same disingenuously shocked and appalled voice I've been hearing it for 6 weeks.

    I'm not gonna get the chance, though, since there's no way he's picking her.

    Parent

    Listen (5.00 / 0) (#196)
    by Porter71 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:29:17 PM EST
    Stop trying to pigeon-hole all Obama supporters.  Not everyone is a Kool-aid drinker.  I'm saying that there are a bunch of Obama supporters who are not Clinton fans, and were that way before the primary who wouldn't be happy with her on the ticket.  There is a reason people didn't vote for her in the primary, and its not all charges of racism and the Obama flash.  Some people actually have legit concerns about the Clintons and how they would mesh with Obama. No crying, no whinning, just my take.  I'd still vote him, but I wouldn't be that excited about her.  I like Joe Biden a lot more than both of them.  That's all I'm saying.

    Parent
    Kaine is anti choice (none / 0) (#111)
    by cawaltz on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:33:38 AM EST
    and perhaps almost as wishy washy as Obama(He is against the death penalty but has presided over Virginia, who has put to death at least 6 folks since he's been in office) They will lose women and any argument they had about Roe v. Wade is out the window. I, in all likelihood would sit home for that ticket and I'm from Va. Furthermore, Kaine is in the hotseat over transportation and with the economy coming unglued appears to be losing some popularity.

    His choice would be a gamble and I am not even certain that it'd pay off in Virginia.

    I'm not certain either (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:36:44 AM EST
    Why? (none / 0) (#147)
    by zfran on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:50:50 AM EST


    Nader (none / 0) (#151)
    by MKS on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:51:33 AM EST
    I don't understand your answer. (none / 0) (#160)
    by zfran on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:58:17 AM EST
    If Obama "won" as you say, why should those of us, whether some had initially voted for him or not, who feel he is under-qualified, vote for him. Because he's got a "d" after his name. Vote candidate, party or country. I choose country this year. You chose which way your please. I just asked why I should vote for Sen. Obama?

    Parent
    My comment is directed a jstock (none / 0) (#164)
    by zfran on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 11:59:44 AM EST
    Bayh (none / 0) (#167)
    by cmugirl on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:02:17 PM EST
    He was a governor (executive experience, which, fair or not, counts a lot), may pick up Indiana and help in the Midwest, where Obama is in more trouble than he should be (especially for a Midwesterner), and boring is good - Obama is the flashy one, and at the risk of some people not believeing it, Obama doesn't like to be upstaged.  Bayh won't do that.

    All I can say about Daischle is that I was on an interview at a DC law firm and got on the elevator as he got off and he had the ugliest plaid jacket on. (Yes, I know, not something to disqualify someone for, but all the real reasons have already been articulated above).

    the worry of being "upstaged" (5.00 / 2) (#177)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:15:23 PM EST
    is the part I don't understand since it is apparently coming from Obama supporters.

    If Obama is seen as the greatest orator of all time and the world's "gift" to the USA per Chris Matthews and his supporters all think he is the second coming of the lord.....why do any of them think he could possibly be "upstaged" by anyone?  He's supposed to be a "rock star".  He gathers crowds like no other politicain has ever been able to do.  what are they worried about?

    The two concepts don't go together.

    Doesn't the fact that they appear to be "worried" about this undermine their attempts to paint him as our savior ant the "one" we've been waiting for?

    Parent

    Jacket...shoes.... (5.00 / 4) (#193)
    by oldpro on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:25:32 PM EST
    If you think the jacket was ugly, you should have seen the alligator (lizard? almost neon orange!) shoes he was sporting on stage at a recent televised forum.

    Gross.

    I love this.  Thanks for the opportunity to discuss the male possible candidate's choice of clothing...a first!!

    Parent

    the VA point of view (none / 0) (#180)
    by DandyTIger on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:19:17 PM EST
    is that Kaine would not help Obama win VA. VA is out of reach for Obama right now IMO. Actually taking Kaine away, even if only a year early, would piss a lot of VA'rs off because we're getting to like the idea of a blue VA. But then if he can't win VA, that won't matter to OBama anyway.

    By the way, Kaines stances on choice and stem cell research are the typical tight rope VA dems have to walk around here. I don't think they'll have to play that game much longer, but they do now anyway. So I'm not sure I'd count that against him to tell you the truth. But of course since Obama isn't completely pro-choice, that issue is a big looser for Kaine IMO.

    I think a Bayh pick is the most likely. He helps with Indiana which Obama needs. And he's from the Clinton camp which may help Obama with some Clinton supporters. And I think he comes across as pretty positive, in that boring John Edwards kind of positive way. Sort of the safe choice that doesn't take attention away from His Preciousness. :-)


    I agree with your assessment on VA (5.00 / 0) (#192)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:25:01 PM EST
    but I disagree with your Bayh take. Obama and his campaign clearly know what I've seen on this in that extending an olive branch to former Hill supporters is futile. They are so upset they won't even vote for a Obama/Clinton ticket.

    Parent
    The Reality-Based Community (none / 0) (#183)
    by DCDemocrat on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:20:38 PM EST
    just isn't going to like your analysis, BTD.

    I am wondering what would happen if (none / 0) (#184)
    by americanincanada on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:21:20 PM EST
    McCain chose Sarah Palin.

    Would her personal story, much better than Obama's from a narrative point of view (IMHO), force him to put Hillary on the ticket? Would female voters resent it if he didn't and lost to the McCain/Palin ticket thereby making Palin the first female VP and not Hillary? would gas prices really plummet if Palin got the nod?

    What would a Palin vs. Clinton 2012 election look like?  

    He had better do himself a favor and pick Bayh (none / 0) (#187)
    by masslib on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 12:21:42 PM EST
    then.  Biden is too angry.  People tend not to like him.  But Kaine...Kaine will demotivate many activists.  He'd be the first anti-choice Dem on a national ticket since before the 1990's.  So, he'd better just go with Bayh.  It's usual to pick somone from one of the opposing teams anyway.  Rounds out the apparatus.

    The Harm is coming from (none / 0) (#202)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 07:58:21 PM EST
    The candidate himself.

    A real candidate doesn't have to worry this much about it.  He thinks about what a Veep can do to help.  Not what a veep can do to hurt.  It's an attitude.  This episode speaks volumes.


    VP (none / 0) (#203)
    by Miri on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 08:20:23 PM EST
    I hope it is not Hillary.

    •  I believe Obama will lose in November and I don't want Hillary to become another Ferraro.

    • VP pick makes absolutely no difference to voters. People vote for the candidate not the VP choice.


    Are you kiddiing? (none / 0) (#204)
    by Miri on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 08:24:39 PM EST
    "He helps with Indiana which Obama needs."

    There is no chance of Dems winning Indiana. It is a deep red state.

    LOL! (none / 0) (#205)
    by Miri on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 08:36:10 PM EST
    "and HRC's comes across an a panderer in my view.  I really just didn't see the convictions with them."

    Yeah, not like The One.

    LOL! Despite all his flip flopping his cult followers still think Obama is a different kind of politician. All his pandering to religious right, on FISA, on abortion.....nothing shakes their belief in The One.

    Hillary takes positions, popular and unpopular, and sticks with them. From Iraq to FISA.

    Compare that to The One, who votes "present" or skips the vote or flip flops when faced with tough choices.

    Ideas (none / 0) (#206)
    by Miri on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 08:44:37 PM EST
    "It's the same as when Obama talked about Reagan's ideas."

    What "idea" is Obama running on?

    Other than; "lets all get long", "end to partisanship", "hope", "change"..........

    These are not ideas. These are slogans from Oprah, Dr Phil.

    I am yet to hear an idea from him that will make me say this guy's got some intellectual heft, full of ideas, a vision for the future.
     

    Donna Brazile (none / 0) (#207)
    by Miri on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 08:48:25 PM EST
    "ANYTHING, and I do mean ANY. THING. to get Donna Brazile the f*ck out of the Dem Party."

    That would be a McGovern scale Obama defeat.

    Post Deleted (none / 0) (#209)
    by fctchekr on Wed Jul 30, 2008 at 10:16:35 PM EST
    I agreed with BTD; is that considered trolling?