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Monday Morning Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 08:34:47 AM EST
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I'll be on Daily Kos radio with Jesse LaGreca this morning at 11 Eastern.

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We'll be talking about Todd Akin and "legitimate rape" among other things:

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    Monday Morning Open Thread | 71 comments (71 topical)

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    What a jerk. (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 09:52:53 AM EST
    Todd Akin: "If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down."

    Huh? Is this where the stupid republican advice "hold an aspirin between your knees" from comes from? Would an aspirin stop a rapist? Or do women have some magical internal chemical that can prevent a sperm from fertilizing her egg?
    Good grief, how do idiots like this get into positions of power?

    I've just about had enough of men talking about abortion. Men can't get pregnant. As far as I'm concerned, they should have NOTHING to say anymore about abortion. It's none of their business what women decide to do with or about pregnancy.

    But, but... (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by KeysDan on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 10:05:19 AM EST
    Todd heard it from a doctor.   And, while too modest to mention it, he is also on the House Science Committee.   But, in fairness,  his doctoral source may have been some Tea Party colleague, such as Christine O'Donnell.  And, after all,  he is on the science committee, not the biological science committee.

    Parent
    A kos diarist found a source for Akin... (none / 0) (#5)
    by magster on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 10:11:29 AM EST
    here.

    And that source's blog just posted defending Akin, citing an 18th century doctor for his theory.

    Parent

    The blogger (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by CoralGables on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 10:40:09 AM EST
    posting that is off the cliff to the right of Dick Cheney. In fact, he makes Cheney look like a bleeding heart liberal. He is so far out there the tea party is part of leftist wing in his deranged mind.

    A few of his recent quotes:
    " Paul Ryan has become a slime ball entitlement queen. He's a deep cover liberal who will spend your money on fat cat entitlement programs"

    "Rescuing children from Muslim families as well as gay ones would further the kingdom of Christ"

    "...if she is pregnant, she was not raped. Aborting her child would be even worse than murdering a child for the crimes of the father. It is murdering a child while slandering his father with false accusations."


    Parent

    ew.... (none / 0) (#46)
    by sj on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 01:19:54 PM EST


    Parent
    Even Scott Brown decries it (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by jbindc on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 11:39:39 AM EST
    calls on Akin to drop out of the Missouri Senate Race

    "As a husband and father of two young women, I found Todd Akin's comments about women and rape outrageous, inappropriate and wrong," Brown, a fellow Republican, said in a statement. "There is no place in our public discourse for this type of offensive thinking. Not only should he apologize, but I believe Rep. Akin's statement was so far out of bounds that he should resign the nomination for US Senate in Missouri."



    Parent
    Agreed. (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 03:29:40 PM EST
    I can understand kdog's point about notifying the man who got you pregnant (with the obvious exceptions for rape and incest), because it's common courtesy -- but with all due respct to him, this is one issue where the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

    Any decision regarding whether or not the impregnating male is duly notified should be strictly the woman's prerogative, and should not be subject to any caveats and / or conditions which might be imposed by others.

    Frankly, as Jane Addams once noted, the essence of immorality is my tendency to make an exception of myself -- and all I know is that I wouldn't want other men to be able to dictate to my own daughters what they can or cannot do regarding their own respective reproductive capacities. If I claim that right for myself and my own progeny, how then can I simultaneously deny it to others, and not look like a monumental hypocrite in the process?

    Therefore, I hold fast to the idea that a woman's right to reproductive freedom is paramount. A woman's body is not a man's chattel, and whatever she decides to do regarding pregnancy and contraception is wholly her own business. Period.

    To the extent that it might be considered my "business" as a man, it should only be one of unequivocal support for the woman's decision, whatever it may be. And if I can't do that, then I should feel obligated and compelled to mind my own business.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Take it easy... (2.00 / 1) (#7)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 10:19:28 AM EST
    don't be as extreme as this tool.

    Men can't get pregnant, but they can impregnate...men are a critical component of the whole reproduction thing.  Men can and should have a say, it most certainly is "their business". While the ultimate decision rests with the woman of course, since it's her body.

    Parent

    By his "logic"... (none / 0) (#14)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 10:45:22 AM EST
    ...then there should be no psychological effects of a rape either, since brain and body are one.  The absurd extensions of his moronic "thinking" are boundless.  And yes, I actually know someone who is the product of a rape.  

    Parent
    It's not a "gaffe" (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Repack Rider on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 10:01:02 AM EST
    ...if he believes it.

    Interesting that Romney's thoughts on jobs and Akin's thoughts on sex are both rooted firmly in the 16th Century.

    If women had the... (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 10:14:19 AM EST
    this mysterious magical power to terminate unwanted pregnancies at will, the dude would probably want them burned at the stake as witches.

    Akin is apparently not alone in his belief (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Anne on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 10:31:12 AM EST
    that few pregnancies occur as a result of rape; it's apparently a well-known talking point in the anti-choice community; David Dayen has the details.

    Oy.

    Parent

    Good to know... (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 10:57:01 AM EST
    so all I have to do is traumatize my lover post-coitus for effective birth control? Thanks Batsh*t Brigade, where ya been all my life with this exciting scientific breakthrough?  Condoms suck, if they can be rendered obsolete by throwing a snake under the sheets, I'm all in;)

    Parent
    Condoms don't suck if you or your partner (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by shoephone on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 11:32:53 AM EST
    is HIV positive (or has another STD.)

    Your comments today are really making me wonder, Kdog.

    Parent

    A necessary evil... (2.00 / 1) (#29)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 11:44:43 AM EST
    to be sure, as contraception and to protect from disease, when not monogamous & mutually tested.

    Can we not also acknowledge condoms aren't fun, while being necessary?  

    At least MileHi has his sense of humor intact today.

    Parent

    You're being incredibly patronizing today (3.50 / 2) (#30)
    by shoephone on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 11:50:32 AM EST
    Here's a hint:

    1. Don't tell a woman to "take it easy" when it comes to matters of rape, pregancy, or abortion.

    2. Don't tll a woman she needs to have a better sense of humor about getting infected with something because her partner whines that "condoms suck."

    You're 2 for 2. Let's see if you can make it three.

    Parent
    what? (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by CST on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 12:03:56 PM EST
    I've read this whole thread and haven't seen anything of that nature.

    Where is he telling them to "take it easy"?  He's saying it's their decision but as a man would like to be kept in the loop.  I find it kind of weird that you're offended by that.  To me it seems more like he is wanting to take some responsibility for whatever happens.

    And the second comment you made also never happened.  He told you to take it easy about the comments he's making.  Unless those comments might infect you with something, it is irrelevant to the point you are trying to make.  And the fact that someone thinks condoms suck, does not mean they don't appreciate their value against infection.  They aren't mutually exclusive ideas.

    I think you are making up things to get offended about, because you disagree with his position.  But he's not saying anything you wrote in your comment.  And for what it's worth, as a female who takes all of this seriously, I don't find anything offensive about the idea that a man might want to be involved in the process.  Other than the case of rape, one would hope that if you are in a sexual relationship with someone there is some level of trust and companionship there to talk about these things.

    Parent

    Re: "Take it easy" (none / 0) (#41)
    by shoephone on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 12:40:21 PM EST
    Kdog's first comment to My Left Mind. Should be easy to find, since it's at the top of the thread.

    As for your hopes about what kinds of relationships people are in, all I can say is, you make a lot of assumptions about other people's lives.

    And now, I too, will take a break. Having to put up with rank ignorance is not going to be part of my schedule for the day.

    Parent

    I'm whining with the rubber on... (none / 0) (#37)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 12:11:43 PM EST
    with every intention of wearing it again, and again, and again.  This isn't high school health class shoephone, we can't even acknowledge condoms reduce pleasure while protecting against pregnancy and disease?  Ok, we'll play fantasyland...condoms feel great!  Happy?

    What I find patronizing is "they should have NOTHING to say anymore about abortion".  I got news for y'all, there are pro-choice men and anti-choice women...don't you want the pro-choice men to speak up, and the anti-choice women to shut up?  Doesn't that make more sense?

    I don't get this bug up some arses today.  But I'll take a break and belatedly take the advice...say nothing.  Enjoy the echo chamber.

    Parent

    Leave kdog aloooone! (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by Democratic Cat on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 12:46:40 PM EST
    I don't think you should stay silent.  Your comment on abortion notification surprised me (and I disagree with you), but I'm with you on condoms. Truly necessary, but really not a lot of fun, unless you blow them up and make balloon animals.

    What I learn from your abortion comment is that we all won't agree on everything. For the most part, I am more interested in the opinions of anti-choice women than pro-choice men. On this issue, women's opinions (both sides of the issue) count more to me than do men's opinions. But I wouldn't dream of telling you that you don't have a right to speak. It's just that I may only listen with one ear.

    Parent

    Who was I kidding... (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 01:25:30 PM EST
    I couldn't stay away...my timeout lasted 15 minutes;)

    By all means we can disagree, I'd get nervous if we didn't, but we can disagree while making an effort to understand where we're all coming from.  Thank you and others for that effort, that's what Talkleft debate is all about imo.

    Parent

    kdog (none / 0) (#71)
    by kmblue on Tue Aug 21, 2012 at 02:27:45 PM EST
    I am also taken aback by your comments.  Suppose you and I are in a relationship.  Suppose I get pregnant and let you know.  Suppose you've always wanted a child and take me to court and drag it out until it's too late to abort.  Guess what?  You might be a swell guy, but I'm not going to tell you.  Way too risky.  

    Parent
    I don't think.... (none / 0) (#72)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 21, 2012 at 03:32:42 PM EST
    a "case" like that should ever see the light of a courtroom.   Gross violation of bodily sovereignty.  I don't think the law should have any say over what you do with your own body, or what I do with mine, though I know sadly that is not the case in this country, in many areas, not just regarding the uterus and abortion.  And it's getting worse.

    Hypothetical...If bodily sovereignty had adequate legal protection, making such a case impossible, would you still refuse to tell me?  If so, why?  Is it really none of my business?  I'm sorry y'all, I can see how strongly many feel abiout it, but I think that is ice cold.  I accept it is your right, but that don't make it right.  

    Parent

    Wait...what? (none / 0) (#17)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 11:08:43 AM EST
    Isn't throwing a snake under the sheets what started the need for BC in the first place?

    Parent
    And, as Anne's link (none / 0) (#43)
    by KeysDan on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 12:44:39 PM EST
    to David Dayen notes, Congressman Todd Akin and Congressman Paul Ryan were co-sponsors  of a bill that tried to re-define the exception for federal funds for abortion as counting only in the case of "forcible rape"  as well as as co-sponsors of a "personhood" bill that would ban in vitro fertilization among other things.   Really, two pea-brains in a pod.

    Parent
    All I can do is shake my head. (none / 0) (#55)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 02:40:30 PM EST
    Honestly, people like Todd Akin really have no business holding public office on any level.

    And I also can't say much for the Bozos around the country who knowingly elect knuckle-draggers like him, and can only wonder if their high school alma mater was "Dueling Banjoes."

    Parent

    Ah, but if you read his "I misspoke" (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by Anne on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 10:25:29 AM EST
    statement, all he really does is say that, yes, those who rape and abuse are bad people, and he surely does feel bad for the victims, but...he's all about protecting the innocent, and that's why he's against abortion.

    Here is a portion of that statement:

    In reviewing my off-the-cuff remarks, it's clear that I misspoke in this interview and it does not reflect the deep empathy I hold for the thousands of women who are raped and abused every year. Those who perpetrate these crimes are the lowest of the low in our society and their victims will have no stronger advocate in the Senate to help ensure they have the justice they deserve.

    "I recognize that abortion, and particularly in the case of rape, is a very emotionally charged issue. But I believe deeply in the protection of all life and I do not believe that harming another innocent victim is the right course of action. I also recognize that there are those who, like my opponent, support abortion and I understand I may not have their support in this election.

    Maybe I'm just not as gifted at reading between the lines as others are, but I don't see anything in the excerpted portion or in the totality of the statement where he rejects the so-called science he invoked in the first place that led him to state that most women who are legitimately raped don't get pregnant because their bodies somehow know it's rape.  Makes me think that he probably also believes that any woman who does get pregnant as a result of a rape is just lying.

    Seems like "R" should be replaced with "N" - for "Neanderthal," but perhaps that doesn't give Neanderthals enough credit.

    What I want to know: (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by the capstan on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 11:52:47 AM EST
    When is rape legitimate or legal?  When the woman is in jail?  When the man has a gun?   When the woman is a citizen of a conquered country?

    Yes, I know that's not exactly what he meant--but it is what he said.  Now tell me when rape is illegitimate?  When the result is an illegitimate child?  When the resulting child is also your grandchild?  When the assailant has a ton of money?  Or when the baby is of the wrong color?

    Parent

    I have the awful feeling (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Zorba on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 12:27:48 PM EST
    that this creep is one of those who think, unless a woman is, say, a great-grandmother who was raped in her own, locked house by an intruder who forcefully broke into her house, the rape is not "legitimate."  He seems to hearken back to the days when people used to think (and some, apparently, still do) that if a woman is out by herself, or if, G-d forbid, she is dressed attractively, then she "deserves" to be raped, that she is "asking for it."  Maybe this isn't how he thinks, but I can't help but feel that it is.  We just seem to be going backward in this country.  Is it the year 2012, or the year 1612?

    Parent
    Sure... (none / 0) (#63)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 05:05:05 PM EST
    I believe deeply in the protection of all life...

    Whatever, sperm are living long before sex.  He only cares about protecting life that's in a woman's uterus.  Even if we were asexual they would still insist woman act the way they want them too, because their reading of the bible says so.

    It's just too damn bad the almighty god forgot to mention abortion back in the stone age when they writing the bible.  Would have solved the problem of idiots who think rapes don't result in pregnancy, insisting their equally idiotic reading of the bible is gods will.

    Parent

    While US Representative Todd Akin's (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by KeysDan on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 10:32:07 AM EST
    explanation for his opposition to abortion, including in instances of rape, has drawn the ire of some Republicans, the ire for his opposition to abortion, even in the cases of rape, seems much less.   According to an article in the NYT, some believe that Akin's comments might actually help him.  Among those who think he could get a boost, is Jamie Tomek, president of the Missouri Branch of NOW, who feels that his comment will not cost him much.

    As for R&R, it is difficult to know where Romney is on this issue on any one day or what it will be the next,  but  we do know that Paul Ryan's anti-abortion record has been essentially absolute ("I am as pro-life as a person gets." )  

    Perhaps DK will post a PayPal for (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 11:18:03 AM EST
    Jesse La Greca to get some vocal coaching.  So irritating.  

    From the little I've heard, (none / 0) (#23)
    by brodie on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 11:31:34 AM EST
    Jesse has Cinq Uygar Syndrome -- he knows only one gear, full throated outrage.  Kind of hard to listen to -- apart from the constant audio problems -- when someone is always raising their voice.

    Funny, based on many of his posted comments here, I would have expected Armando to be the one speaking in full rant, yet he's the voice of calm and reason.

    Parent

    Today;s show was (none / 0) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 11:40:22 AM EST
    pretty good on the sound quality.

    I listened to a good chunk on the stream and it was ok I thought.

    Parent

    Only able to listen (none / 0) (#39)
    by brodie on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 12:25:08 PM EST
    to the first 15 min today.  At least I learned that Jesse comes through on Skype, which in my experience has more than its share of tech interruptions.  I just prefer Jesse try to ease off a tad.  I already get there is plenty out there to be angry about.

    Even with those things, and maybe someone needing a reminder to hit the sneeze-sniffle button, it's a good show with solid content and discussion.

    Parent

    You have younger hearing. Jesse (none / 0) (#56)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 02:48:37 PM EST
    starts slow now, but instantly speeds up and never slows down. I just can't catch him when he ratchets up. Is this a permanent feature?  If so, i just can't handle the exasperation of trying to listen to him.

    Parent
    Diana Nyad Update (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by CoralGables on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 11:19:29 AM EST
    Thunderstorm settled over her last night blowing her off course but the jellyfish never arrived. A loss and a win. The storm likely added many hours to the swim as she was still not halfway after 40 hours of what was hoping to be a 60 hour swim.

    She once again greeted the day with light seas, calm breezes, warm water, and cloudless skies. The original plan was to arrive near sunrise tomorrow morning. The hope now may be to arrive before the start of her 63 birthday at midnight tomorrow night.

    Augusta National Golf Club (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by jbindc on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 11:38:09 AM EST
    Admits is first female members - Condi Rice and Darla Moore

    Yay, this has been a long time coming! (none / 0) (#35)
    by SuzieTampa on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 12:04:04 PM EST


    Parent
    This is great (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by lilburro on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 01:30:30 PM EST
    via Kos:

    Interviewer: Okay. Which designers do you prefer?

    Hillary Clinton: What designers of clothes?

    Interviewer: Yes.

    Hillary Clinton: Would you ever ask a man that question?

    Interviewer: Probably not. Probably not.
    to be prefectly fair, though... (none / 0) (#51)
    by unitron on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 01:57:40 PM EST
    ...someone interviewing her nowadays probably interviews men whose professional positions allow them to choose between the dark blue suit and the dark grey suit, or one of the above with very discreet and muted pinstripes if they're feeling wild and crazy.

    Parent
    Too bad they don't ask men that. (none / 0) (#54)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 02:32:47 PM EST
    There are any number of men who could be classified as dedicated followers of fashion. My favorite designer is Levi Strauss.

    Parent
    My favorite... (none / 0) (#58)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 03:13:37 PM EST
    is anyone who makes clothes that fit me--a tall, thin oddity in an apparently short and stout world.  

    Levi's is good at that.  

    Parent

    "Oh yes he is!... (none / 0) (#59)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 03:18:48 PM EST
    Oh yes he is!"

    Parent
    The whole interview (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by sj on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 01:43:40 PM EST
    is here.

    Whoops (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by sj on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 01:44:11 PM EST
    Meant as a reply to lilburro.

    Parent
    Phyllis Diller has died (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by jbindc on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 02:54:00 PM EST
    She was 95.

    RIP.

    All I'm saying is... (2.00 / 1) (#18)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 11:13:25 AM EST
    the man is part of the process and should at least be notified...as I thought I said quite clearly the first time, the ultimate decision rests with the woman.  I never said anything remotely resembling women are cattle or forcing women to carry to term...that's the anti-choicer extreme position.

    If the man has to pay child support for 18 years if the woman decides to have the baby, he should at least be given the courtesy of being kept in the loop regarding the decision to carry or abort.  I'd sure as hell wanna know at least, and ideally be asked for my input, even if the ultimate decision ain't mine (and rightly so).  

    We can be unabashedly pro-choice while acknowledging the moral quandary of an unwanted pregnancy, and having a little respect for the father side of the equation.  

    I see your point of view, but strongly (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 11:17:02 AM EST
    disagree with it.  In addition, at present males who impregnate females have no constitutional right to notice.  

    Parent
    Ditto! (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by shoephone on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 11:34:49 AM EST
    I don't think I'ever disagreed more with one of Kdog's comments. Stunning, really.

    Parent
    Stunning? (none / 0) (#31)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 11:50:56 AM EST
    Really?  Stunning to suggest the man is morally entitled to at least a phone call to say "I'm pregnant and I'm getting an abortion" or "You're going to be a father?"  That's really too much to ask?  Wow.

    Parent
    Yes, stunning. Really. (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by shoephone on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 11:56:57 AM EST
    If your girlfriend tells you she's pregnant, and says she DOES NOT want to keep it, and you say but I WANT YOU TO KEEP IT BECAUSE IT'S MY PROGENY, then what? Do you think your feelings about it should rule over hers?

    It isn't your choice. And there are a multitude of reasons why a woman may choose to not want to tell or involve a man in that decision.

    Stunning on so many different levels.

    Parent

    He specifically said (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by CST on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 12:05:13 PM EST
    at least twice that he thinks it should be her final decision.

    Parent
    I've reread and contemplated.... (none / 0) (#64)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 05:10:51 PM EST
    Of course I don't think my feelings should "rule" over hers, I'm surprised you would think that.  I could have been clearer in my original reply to My Left Mind about "having a say".  I don't mean a binding say of any sort.  A consult.  A heads up.  A "you should know...".  I can think of good reasons not to inform.  Like an abusive relationship.  Or just the guy is the kinda maniac you describe who would try to stake a preposterous claim to a woman's uterus. aka Republicans doing just that in in office and running for office.

    But there are plenty of good reasons to inform, surely you can see that.  If nothing else than to not have to go through it alone.  Ideally, in a normal healthy relationship, the male partner can have an opinion and a chance to express his wishes, to which the female partner can weigh as her heart desires.  That's the courtesy I'd hope for personally.

    As long as a man respects the sovereignty of a woman's body and respects that the decision is ultimately hers, he can and should have some say.  That's what I'd say on a rewrite. Perhaps I interpreted My Left Mind's "NOTHING" too harshly, if I did I apologize.    

    Parent

    I understand your meaning, kdog. (none / 0) (#66)
    by caseyOR on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 05:39:42 PM EST
    I think where you are getting into trouble is with phrases like "should have some say" as that implies that the man has a right to be part of the decision making.

    Well, he doesn't have that "right." And I don't think you mean that he has a "right." It sounds to me like your position is that, if the relationship is a good one, you would like to be involved to whatever degree the woman is comfortable with. That you would want to be there to support her if she decided to terminate, and that if she decided to keep the baby, you would want to be there to help and support her through the pregnancy and the birth and the subsequent raising of the child.

    And I sense that, even though you accept and support that these decisions are the woman's to make, you would be sad to learn that someone with whom you had a relationship, even a short one, would not trust you with the information that she was pregnant, and would not want you involved.

    Have I got it right, my friend?

    Parent

    If the relationship is a good one (none / 0) (#68)
    by Towanda on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 06:47:46 PM EST
    there are no "shouldas."

    It's nice of you to try to undig that hole, but there really is no such thing as an unshovel.

    Parent

    About right Cap'n... (none / 0) (#70)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 21, 2012 at 10:33:37 AM EST
    The father has no "right" to know, but I can't stress enough how strongly I feel that informing the father is the right thing to do, absent good reasons not to inform.

    The dismissive attitude really rubbed me the wrong way...I know these anti-choice areseholes in power legislating their way into sovereign women's bodies have women on the defensive, for good reason, but let us not forget that many if not most men don't think that way, we can be trusted with this information that does very much have something to do with us.  

    Parent

    kdog, I Think You A Way Off (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 12:25:05 PM EST
    Does that include rapes, how about the girl that wakes up next to some guy, can't remember anything but knows she would never sleep with a guy she just met.  Is she morally obligated to tell the big mouth frat boy she's getting an abortion, or just the pregnancy ?  

    You are the last person I would expect to use the phrase 'morality entitled', seems more like the language Pat Roberts would use.

    And this story is reason #1,000,001 why one not need tell the father.  A grown a$$ politician can't even be bothered to get an 8th grade health class education on reproduction before he defends abortion.  What if his girlfriend was raped and got impregnated, he wouldn't believe her and would probably tell everyone in town what a whore she is and that she got an abortion.  All because he is a fricken moron.

    Parent

    Obviously not... (none / 0) (#45)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 01:11:01 PM EST
    in cases of rape...didn't think that had to be specified.  In cases of consensual sex leading to pregnancy.

    Maybe "morally entitled" was a bad choice of words, was trying to say it in a way that did not imply a legal right to be notified, I don't want any legal burden placed on a woman.

    Let's just say in the case of consensual sex leading to pregnancy, I strongly believe letting the father know is the right thing to do, unless there are good reasons not to notify the father.  

    I don't mean to discount how emotionally and morally trying the decision must be for a woman, not trying to advocate for adding another burden.  But maybe the man is a good guy and can offer emotional support, but he's gotta know to do that.  Or maybe upon discussing everything with the father the woman decides to keep it, knowing the father will be a part of the child's life and be there to support them monetarily, parentally, emotionally...instead of maybe just assuming she is all alone to deal with the consequences.  

    And lastly, men have feelings too that can at least be considered and heard before the woman makes her decision, that is ultimately hers alone.  Women aren't the only ones who suffer with this difficult decision, men can and do suffer emotionally too...in a different way.  

    Parent

    Amazing (none / 0) (#52)
    by vicndabx on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 02:19:47 PM EST
    that many think that a man should have no involvement at all in the decision-making process.  We wonder why our society is so screwed up, why 50%+ of marriages fail.

    Totally agree w/you on this.  It's a shame so many see what you're saying as some sort of threat to their own individuality.  Geez, all you said was talk to the guy about it.

    Parent

    vicndabx (none / 0) (#62)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 04:47:46 PM EST
    Amazing that many think that a man should have no involvement at all in the decision-making process.  We wonder why our society is so screwed up, why 50%+ of marriages fail.

    What does one have to do with the other ?  Any proof ?  But since you're just making it up, maybe marriages are failing because we aren't aborting enough fetuses, just as dumb of a statement.

    The man should be involved if the woman wants him involved.  You are amusing this is like a loving couple where everyone respects each other.  Not a one night stand, a drunken mistake, an abusive bf, or just an ahole would might let everyone on FB know about the abortion.

    For anyone to state that a women has to let anyone know about something so personnel IMO is not respecting their right to privacy at all.

    If you are so worried about, keep your sperm to yourself, once you give it it away, you lose the right to dictate what it does in someone else's body.

    Parent

    C'mon man... (none / 0) (#65)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 05:26:17 PM EST
    who said "dictate"?  who said "has to"?  

    Maybe Vic and I paint too rosy a hypothetical, but I think you're painting too bleak a one.  

    Parent

    Ummm, we have a failure to communicate (none / 0) (#67)
    by vicndabx on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 06:02:34 PM EST
    Which was the point of the reference to failed marriages.  Communication, also something that should be present before and after a woman gets pregnant. Clearly I'm talking about situations that don't involve rape.

    keep your sperm to yourself, once you give it it away, you lose the right to dictate what it does in someone else's body.

    totally agree

    Parent

    kdog (none / 0) (#69)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 06:55:47 PM EST
    I think it depends. Really, it does because if you have been in a committed relationship with this person, I think they would tell you no matter what. I also think if it was a horrible one night stand that both people regretted then it's unlikely there are going to be any calls done on that account. I mean what would be the point in calling in the last situation? You're not likely to ever see that person again ever and if you call them what then? Either they are going to say thanks for letting me know or try to talk you out of it. Not much reason to call in that last circumstance.

    Parent
    Sure don't think it should be the law... (none / 0) (#22)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 11:23:35 AM EST
    to notify or anything...I just think it's the right thing to do.

    Parent
    Wish Akin had waited until... (none / 0) (#2)
    by magster on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 09:58:21 AM EST
    next weekend to make his nonsense widely available to the masses. I read there's a deadline of tomorrow at 5 pm for him to withdraw before the Missouri GOP is officially stuck with him. I could see him tanking not only his race but dragging the GOP down nationally. Unfortunately i think the national GOP see this too, and will give him "an offer he cannot refuse."

    Last link to my mother's Egypt documentary (none / 0) (#11)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 10:38:03 AM EST
    Third time's a charm for her pre-Arab spring film, hope anyone who watches it enjoys it.  Have a good Monday, peeps. (link)

    Never heard of Foster-McCallum polling... (none / 0) (#13)
    by magster on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 10:40:19 AM EST
    ... but they have Romney up 15 points in Florida as of 8/17. Are they reputable? Is Ryan more of an asset there than we all assumed?

    That's what's called an "outlier." (none / 0) (#53)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 02:28:39 PM EST
    All the other polls show the race in Florida to be close, with Obama given the slight advantage, albeit within the margin for error in most instances.

    Parent
    On the other side of the political spectrum (none / 0) (#42)
    by SuzieTampa on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 12:41:03 PM EST
    and across the pond: MP George Galloway has said what constitutes real rape in the Assange case.

    RIP, Phyllis Diller (1917-2012). (none / 0) (#61)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 04:09:36 PM EST
    The self-deprecating comedian with an uncanny ability to deliver rapid-fire punchlines died in her sleep in Brentwood last night.

    "It's all about structure. If there's one thing I can do, it's write a joke. Too many comics today ramble. By the time they get to the punch line, the audience has either gone to sleep, gone to the bathroom or gone to bed."

    Starting with an acclaimed 89-week run at San Francisco's Purple Onion in the mid-1950s, the former marketing director for KSFO-AM proved herself to be a true pioneer for female stand-up comics everywhere. And most people would be surprised to learn that she was also a trained and well-regarded concert pianist.

    Diller made her film debut in 1961's Splendor in the Grass, playing the legendary Prohibition saloonkeeper / nightclub hostess Mary Louise "Texas" Guinan. She retired her own nightclub act in 2002, but continued making occasional personal appearances on television until last year.

    Phyllis Diller was certainly one of a kind. Her son Perry told KABC-TV (Los Angeles) that he found her this morning, with a smile on her face -- not a bad way to exit, stage left.

    Monday Morning Open Thread | 71 comments (71 topical)

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