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Friday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Fri Apr 14, 2017 at 02:47:56 PM EST
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    Friday Open Thread | 123 comments (123 topical)

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    Charter Schools (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Apr 14, 2017 at 05:06:45 PM EST
    ...  take taxpayer money but are not accountable to the taxpayers.  They are accountable to people whose goal is not education, but profit.  Education is just the commodity they have to sell for that profit, but it's not like they care about it any more than if they were selling plumbing supplies.

    I posted this on Facebook and I heard from a lot of parents who say the charter schools their kids attend are great.  No argument there.  These schools get to choose whom they educate, and leave the hard cases to the public schools.

    It's not about the quality of the schools.  I assume they are great, given that advantage.  It's about tax monies being used for profitable enterprises that do not serve the public at large, and which by their mere existence, reduce the quality of public education.

    How are their charter schools great? (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 14, 2017 at 06:36:59 PM EST
    Are their kids getting "great" SAT and ACT scores?

    Parent
    If they don't they can (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 06:25:59 PM EST
    leave.

    Try that from a pubic school.

    Parent

    Privately-managed charter schools ... (none / 0) (#4)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 14, 2017 at 08:03:26 PM EST
    ... under the control of a corporation are the ones you're complaining about. These are far different from the public charter schools found in Massachusetts and Hawaii, which differ from traditional public schools only in the sense that theirs is an autonomous school-community based management model, as opposed to the top-down management approach found in most large school district bureaucracies.  (In MA, they're called charter public schools.)

    Public charter schools in Hawaii are still subject to State Dept. of Education certification and national accreditation criteria, and must comply with state collective bargaining law with regards to their employees -- that is, their teachers are members of the Hawaii State Teachers Association, the union. Further, state law mandates equality between all schools in its per-pupil allocations.

    Public charter schools, however, have much more flexibility in determining academic curriculum and far greater discretion regarding how the school spends its funds. Their financial books are subject to DOE audit. Most Hawaiian language-immersion schools in the State are public charter schools, and they integrate indigenous culture in both the academic curriculum and daily school life in ways that regular public schools cannot.

    The for-profit model of corporate charter school management is an odious one, because it's a disservice to students and teachers alike, and often shortchanges the community it purports to serve. Because public charter schools in Hawaii are community-based and -managed, they tend to be more responsive to community needs. The DOE provides general oversight, but does not involve itself in the day-to-day operations of the school, as it does in traditional public schools.

    Anyway, all I wanted to do is point out is that not all charter schools across the country are the same. Speaking for myself only, I believe that the model adopted by Massachusetts and Hawaii happens to be much more in line with most people's visions for how public schools should be, and further holds much potential to provide answers in the constant struggle against bureaucratic inertia.

    And both states vigorously draw the line against the introduction of for-profit charter schools found elsewhere. MA voters last November rejected expansion of the commonwealth's charter public school system, which would have allowed for the introduction of the for-profit model.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Tax money is also (none / 0) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 14, 2017 at 08:04:30 PM EST
    used to provide some children Medicaid.

    And the healthcare providers may very well be a for profit group. Some may be not for profit.

    And they get to choose who they treat.

    Seems fair and good to me. Would you throw the kids under the bus?

    And I don't see how the existence of charter schools hurt the quality of public education. If anything they enhance it by reducing the class sizes of the surrounding schools.

    Of course my solution is to take the school district's budget money, and divide it up among all the students and let them spend it with any school they want.

    Parent

    They are quite unlike government schools. (none / 0) (#46)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 03:20:38 PM EST
    Most government  schools on the other hand are "accountable" only to politicians that were elected with massive assistance from the teacher's union PAC.

    Parent
    Abdul that is nonsense (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by MKS on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 07:07:41 PM EST
    Public schools are run by School Boards, which are typically comprised of elected members.  That is democracy at the grass roots or local level.

     

    Parent

    yes! that is my understanding also! (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by linea on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 10:04:15 PM EST
    The Board of Directors for Seattle Public Schools is an elected body of seven citizens representing geographical regions, known as Districts, within the City of Seattle. The length of each member's term is four years. Directors are elected by district in the primary elections and at-large (city-wide) in the general elections of odd-numbered years.

    are we to replace locally elected school board members with the Koch brothers? it's laughable for libertarians and republican-libertarians to assert that their utopia "free of government interference" would somehow provide any education for children at all (as if the libertarian utopia of somolia is just dandy).

    Parent

    Don't look now but.... (none / 0) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 07:35:00 AM EST
    Welcome to FindLaw's Curriculum Standards and Funding section, with articles and resources to help you understand the federal and state laws that determine curriculum and funding sources. This section covers everything from the manner in which curriculum is decided, exit testing for high school seniors, sources of school funding, the No Child Left Behind (NCLB) Act, and more. In addition, you will find information about the history of school curriculum, the various methods of teacher accountability, and how school districts spend education funds.

    Curriculum Standards and Funding"

    Now we have Common Core, and a whole system of tests and curriculum aligned to it, and very clearly teachers were NOT at the table when the key decisions were made.

    The "deciders" in the Common Core process were those who set the process in motion at the Gates Foundation and Department of Education, and the testing companies who were involved in crafting the standards so they would be testable.

    Link

    Parent

    And states often impose (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by MKS on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 10:19:14 AM EST
    religious test on texts....creationism and no climate change.

    Decisions about teachers, etc., all made at the local level.

    Parent

    Typically (3.00 / 3) (#90)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 10:24:04 AM EST
    Typically school board elections are scheduled at times other than at general elections.  This ensures low turn out. All to the benefit of the teacher's union PAC.

    Scheduling voting to insure low turn out sounds more like a rigged system than democracy in action.

    Parent

    How much money do the Kochs, (none / 0) (#102)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 02:45:31 PM EST
    Mercers, DeVos's of the world spend promoting privatization and plutocracy in action, compared to your postulated efforts by teachers unions to undermine "democracy in action"?

    Any idea?

    Parent

    Not always (none / 0) (#103)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 02:47:30 PM EST
    It means a committed number of a few people can sway the election.

    Evangelicals have done better than most at capturing school boards.

    Parent

    "government schools" (none / 0) (#47)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 04:49:39 PM EST
    Yep, just like they got in all them communist countries..

    So, being subject to an ongoing, very-well-funded, public attack campaign from the privatization-or-bust crowd doesn't count as being "held accountable"?

    I guarantee the privatization Kochs, DeVos's, and Mercers are doling out as much "assistance" in order to control the narrative, as those dreaded teacher's unions are.

    Parent

    Actually jondee you should check (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 05:19:21 PM EST
    who sets the curriculum and who they work for.

    I think you will find that they aren't elected...and as the people with kids in Rockville are finding out administrators don't give a damn.

    The public schools are failing and people are voting with their feet and pocketbooks to show it.

    Parent

    Something you should think about is (none / 0) (#53)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 06:11:32 PM EST
    if all children receive a good education, who in the future is going to call science a hoax and teach that all the events mentioned in the Bible happened exactly the way the Bible says?

    Parent
    The question is, who is going to define (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 06:24:15 PM EST
    their education?

    You have zip knowledge of what private K-12 schools teach you just want to make an inane statement.

    Congratulations. You exceeded expectations.

    Parent

    I know what some of them teach.. (none / 0) (#59)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 07:02:26 PM EST
    I've had a lot of friends and family members, including my wife, who were teachers

    Granted, it's nothing compared to the education you got handling live rattlers in a travelin' medicine show, and from "listening to the radio", but I think I have a handle on the general curriculum.

    Parent

    If you want to be taken seriously then try and (2.00 / 1) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 07:23:16 AM EST
    state a logical argument rather than mumbling that you have a wife and friends who were teachers.

    That is just an expression of your bias.


    Parent

    Never heard jondee mumble (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by MKS on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 10:17:03 AM EST
    One of the  most articulate here, actually.

    How you are still here after all your insults......

    Parent

    Bias.. (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 01:57:03 PM EST
    have you Ever, at any time, stated a position here that doesn't sound like it was vetted first by the Heritage Foundation?

    I've met Hare Krishna folks who were less doctrinaire than you on the issues.

    Parent

    Another ridiculous, false claim (none / 0) (#62)
    by Yman on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 09:34:35 PM EST
    The public schools are failing and people are voting with their feet and pocketbooks to show it.

    Proportion of U.S. Students in Private Schools is 10 Percent and Declining

    In the real world, private school enrollment is declining, but if you feel better sending the g-kids to a Jesus-school, feel free to pay for it from your own pocket.

    Parent

    What they (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 08:48:48 AM EST
    are known as is segregation academies hiding behind Jesus.

    Parent
    I'll tell that to the black parents (none / 0) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 09:32:32 AM EST
    paying for their children's education at my grandson's school.

    You are 30 plus years behind, GA. Come on up to 2017. The water is fine and the culture completely changed from the 70's.

    The separate but equal now is $$$$.

    Parent

    Haha (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 11:17:54 AM EST
    I'm sure. We have plenty of private schools that are not run by evangelicals that have minority students. It's the ones run by evangelicals that are known as the segregation academies. Even some evangelical of the evangelicals now admit that it was when Bob Jones University lost their right to deny students entrance based on race is what started the evangelical movement.

    Parent
    Uh so you are now saying (1.00 / 1) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 05:03:42 PM EST
    that no black person is an "evangelical."

    You are grossly uninformed.

    And what decade was it that happened to Bob Jones?

    Why 5/24/1983 ... Thirty three years, 11 months and 41 days ago.

    Think maybe things have changed??? Like, you know...you believing Russia is bad???? You sure didn't back then.

    lol

    Parent

    Uh, so you know what Ga thought (none / 0) (#77)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 06:14:43 PM EST
    of Russia thirty years ago?

    Just a tad presumptuous on your part, no?

    What is that? an example of the hard-right's "everybody knows liberals is secret communists" mentality????

    I think it is.

    The John Birch reading room just called: you never returned that copy of None Dare Call It Conspiracy that you borrowed.

    lol

    Parent

    And what business is that of yours? (none / 0) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 07:28:29 PM EST
    Really, you worry about things that don't involve you.

    Parent
    What business it of yours (none / 0) (#86)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 08:43:08 PM EST
    to postulate what Ga thought 30 years ago?

    Kma, in a nice Southern Baptist kinda way.

    Parent

    "You are grossly uninformed," ... (none / 0) (#82)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 08:08:31 PM EST
    ...  says the guy who claimed that "we [The U.S.] didn't attack or bomb Hanoi" during the Vietnam War.

    You know, people in glass houses, &etc.

    Parent

    "30 years behind"? (none / 0) (#71)
    by Yman on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 11:27:16 AM EST
    If you're speaking about the South, that's probably an underestimate.  If you're speaking about GA6th, you might want to do some reading, first:

    In Southern Towns, 'Segregation Academies' Are Still Going Strong

    Private Schools Still Enable Segregation

    Why Private School Vouchers Could Exacerbate School Segregation

    Parent

    Make that 40 years (none / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 04:56:20 PM EST
    and reading a biased piece from the Atlantic won't help your case.

    Parent
    How would you know? (none / 0) (#80)
    by Yman on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 07:47:39 PM EST
    You don't even know what a case is, let alone how to present one - as evidenced by your fact-free, evidence free claims about public education and private schools in the South.

    BTW - You might want to try reading the scientific study being discussed - as opposed to anecdotal stories from the g-kids school.

    But if you're talking about how far behind the South is in terms of desegregation and education, you're probably waaaaaay underestimating ...

    Parent

    Knowing your ability to make things up (none / 0) (#87)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 10:59:36 PM EST
    I wouldn't believe anything you said, wrote or displayed.

    Face it. You follow me, and some others, around. That's stalking.

    I don't know why except I think your ego got smacked when I kicked you out of my blog after warning you about your nasty personal attacks.

    In the meantime I have taken your HP piece, dissected it and showed how worthless it is about the subject.

     

    Parent

    Hahahahahahahaha (none / 0) (#108)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 04:48:46 PM EST
    Jim - you didn't "dissect" a thing - you couldn't if you tried.  He//, Jim - even trying to formulate a counterargument based on anything resembling facts and logic is far beyond your capabililities.  It's kind'uv embarrassing to watch, really.

    But the blog thing was funny.  Who wouldn't be upset by being banned from a racist, wingnut blog that no one reads?

    Heh.

    Parent

    Yman, you should try reading (1.00 / 1) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 04:53:46 PM EST
    and understanding before you make a claim. From your own source.

    "The enrollment decline in the large Catholic school sector is one of the main reasons why private school enrollments make up a smaller percentage of total enrollments."

    "The growth of the charter school movement is a second reason why the private school share of total enrollments has declined. Public charter schools, which have greater independence from the rules that govern other public schools, give parents additional options for their children without having to pay private school tuition. Only about 5 percent of all public schools are charter schools, but the numbers are growing. Charter schools tend to be concentrated in cities and in other areas with large numbers of low-income families."

    "A final reason for the shrinking private school share is the recent deep economic recession. High unemployment rates and stagnant wages have made it more difficult for parents to pay private school tuition and have caused both poor and middle-class families to seek options other than private schools for their children."

    So what we have is a decline in Catholic schools.  Which follows the noted dropping out of Catholics not following their own religious canons. Charter schools expanding because the inner city school system has failed and people just not having the money to send their kids to a better school if a charter school is not available.

    That's not a rejection of the private school concept.

    The real issue is fairness. Just as separate but equal was not equal and grossly unfair the current method of allocating taxpayer education dollars is not equal.

    Consider this. The private school parent removes at least one student from the public system saving that cost. And even lowly Alabama spends $9.028.00 per student while New York drops $20610. And that does not
    include capital outlays, interest on debts and payments to other governments.

    If the student was in the public system somebody would have to pay.

    So we have the parents subsidizing a failed system with their taxes, saving the public system thousands by not using it and then paying for their own children.

    Simple fairness would dictate that the monies appropriated for the school district be divided equally among all students living in that district and given an "on demand" voucher equal to that amount. If the parents want to go to a public school in the district, fine. Just give them the voucher. If they want a charter school and are accepted, just give them the voucher. If the charter school, which has been taking public funds all this time, find that they are shorted, then they should just have to adjust. If the private school  wants more money, then  the parent makes up the difference. All of this assumes that there is space available and that the student meets the criteria to be accepted.

    The only people who oppose this are the professional "educators" who are fearful that their power and control will end.

    Parent

    Good grief (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by MKS on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 05:53:12 PM EST
    Public charter schools are public schools.

    An increase in enrollment in public charter schools is not an increase in enrollment in private schools.

    You know, a public school is a public school.

    And Catholic schools are private schools.....but I forgot your belief that "Southern European Culture" is inferior, so Catholic schools just don't count in your universe.....

    Parent

    You obviously can't read. (1.00 / 1) (#79)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 07:39:04 PM EST
    "The growth of the charter school movement is a second reason why the private school share of total enrollments has declined.

    "The enrollment decline in the large Catholic school sector is one of the main reasons why private school enrollments make up a smaller percentage of total enrollments."

    Why don't you read...they did teach you how in your public school education didn't they..... and then try to comment on what is written instead of making things up?

    I mean you demonstrate no knowledge of how the system works...you seem to believe you elect a school board and then they do what ever they want.

    Parent

    Site violator (5.00 / 4) (#83)
    by MKS on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 08:14:36 PM EST
    More insults.  Saying I "can't read."

    You are a troll.  You insult people.  You taunt people.  You bring no real facts to the discussion.  You hijack threads.

    Parent

    Let me see (none / 0) (#89)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 11:10:14 PM EST
    you write things that I haven't written...And I'm supposed to believe you can read?

    Okay.

    A. You can't read.

    B. You make things up.

    Which is it? Your choice. Either works for me.

    Parent

    Hey Jim, try this (none / 0) (#94)
    by Peter G on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 12:35:41 PM EST
    "It seems you misunderstood what I wrote. I apologize if I wasn't clear. What I meant (at #__ above) was not what you took from what I posted, but rather ...."  Why does it have to be something in attack mode? (Hint: it doesn't.)

    Parent
    Thanks, Peter (none / 0) (#97)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 01:58:21 PM EST
    I will try that the next time I feel that someone is not just making things up that I never said.

    I give you my #50 and jondee's #53, #59

    Yman;s #66

    My #73 and MKS's #76

    etc., etc.

    Parent

    He can't help it (none / 0) (#104)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 02:54:41 PM EST
    the other kids on the playground pick on him.

    Why is it that the level of civility here goes right in the toilet as soon as you show up, Jim?

    People here must just be mean mean mean.

    Parent

    I rest my case (none / 0) (#109)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 05:02:53 PM EST


    Parent
    please do (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 05:15:00 PM EST


    Parent
    You say (none / 0) (#95)
    by MKS on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 12:40:02 PM EST
    "you write things that I haven't written..."

    Of course, I do.   I do write things that you do not write.

    If you are going to insult me, do better than that.

    Parent

    The point is that you are falsely claiming (none / 0) (#98)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 02:01:07 PM EST
    that I wrote something that I did not.

    But you know that.

    Read your comment #76. I never said any of that.

    Parent

    Jim, you should try reading ... (5.00 / 3) (#81)
    by Yman on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 07:58:02 PM EST
    ... your own false claims as you're typing them, then you wouldn't have to be embarrassed twice - first, when making the obviously false claim, then, by presenting an irrelevant and impotent defense of that same claim:

    The public schools are failing and people are voting with their feet and pocketbooks to show it.

    Except, of course, they're not.  Ninety percent of students are educated in public schools and the percentage of parents enrolling their kids in private schools is falling.  So your claim is false.  But if you want to use your pocketbook, feel free.  Just don't come looking to the rest of us to pay for your g-kids' Jesus school.  As one of those who lives in a blue state that receives far less federal spending than we contribute, I'm sick of subsidizing Trumpers who want to teach a Flintstones version of science and cite warped interpretations of religious texts instead of scientific studies.

    Parent

    Wingnut welfare (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by MKS on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 08:16:42 PM EST
    is a b*tch.   Hypocrites.

    Parent
    "The Flintstones" would be flattering. (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 08:17:52 PM EST
    Yman: "I'm sick of subsidizing Trumpers who want to teach a Flintstones version of science and cite warped interpretations of religious texts instead of scientific studies."

    These guys are pushing a curriculum that's worthy of "Theodoric of York, Medieval Barber."

    Parent

    Who are these guys???? (none / 0) (#99)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 02:02:07 PM EST
    Care to be specific??

    Parent
    You and the guys you support, for starters. (none / 0) (#113)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 09:48:59 PM EST
    Anybody who denies the existence of climate change has his head up his arse.

    Parent
    Please try and be specific in (none / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Apr 19, 2017 at 07:57:28 AM EST
    the statement of your argument.

    No one is denying that climate changes. Everyone knows it has been doing so since day 1. So you have started out by making a false statement.

    The question is the cause, or more likely, causeS. You hoaxers claim it is man caused by the use of petroleum products, primarily gasoline. Us skeptics say that is not correct.

    I again refer you to Karl Popper and again note the requirements for a Scientific Theory vs a "theory."

    Old Karl dressed it up a bit but the essence is that it must be testable, predictable and the failure of one part invalidates all.

    In the meantime keep on displaying your ignorance by using vulgar phrases meant to insult. It does. display your true personality so very well.

    Parent

    BTW - A theory that cannot be proven (none / 0) (#120)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Apr 19, 2017 at 09:19:14 AM EST
    must be accepted based on faith or rejected for lack of faith.

    That.....the acceptance of a belief based on faith...is the basis of all religions.

    So congrats on joining the Church of Man Made Global Warming, The Rev Algore preaching and making money.

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#88)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 11:07:06 PM EST
    The public schools are failing and people are voting with their feet and pocketbooks to show it.

    I didn't say the number of private school students were increasing. Can't you read???

    In fact, I didn't dispute your HP article, just amplified and used it as a base to write:

    That's not a rejection of the private school concept.

    I then explained in detail the unfairness of how education tax dollars are spent.

    And quit being so put on. If you folks had shouldered your fair share of defense there wouldn't be so many military bases in the south soaking up tax dollars.

    Parent

    I can read - I just wish you could (none / 0) (#107)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 04:42:32 PM EST
    You didn't "amplify" anything.  You made a false, laughable claim which I refuted.  It would be nice if you would make it challenging every now and again.  If only you could.

    BTW - We shoulder more than out fair share of defense.  If only you could educate people properly, they'd have more career options and you wouldn't be so reliant on mooching off of the rest of us.

    Parent

    All eight of Arkansas' scheduled executions (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Peter G on Fri Apr 14, 2017 at 09:50:28 PM EST
    are on hold, two due to individual stays, and the other six thanks to the intervention of the pharmaceutical company that manufactures the execution drug. The company says they prohibit their distributors from reselling to prisons, because it damages their commercial reputation to be associated with executions. A local Arkansas judge issued the order, so an immediate appeal to the state supreme court may ensue, with uncertain results. Arkansas had been due to begin a ten-day kill-a-thon Monday, trying to beat the expiration date on the available poisons. Eight executions in ten days in one state would have been a U.S. capital punishment record.

    It's like living in Candide (none / 0) (#19)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Apr 15, 2017 at 02:43:50 PM EST


    Parent
    i oppose the death penalty (none / 0) (#43)
    by linea on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 02:18:20 PM EST
    but im inclined to think this may simply be the end of the lethal-injection era in america and the start of the nitrogen-hypoxia era.

    Time.com: The Dawn of a New Form of Capital Punishment

    from the judge's injunction:

    Plaintiffs offer nitrogen hypoxia as an alternative to the Arkansas Midazolam Protocol. Nitrogen hypoxia is a process in which gas displaces a person's oxygen supply, thereby causing rapid unconsciousness and a painless death within minutes (Dkt. No. 2-2, Ex. 22 and 23). The state of Oklahoma recently studied and adopted hypoxia as a feasible execution method (Dkt. No. 2-2, Ex. 22). The state of Louisiana has also studied hypoxia as an execution method (Dkt. No. 2- 2, Ex. 23). Both Oklahoma and Louisiana concluded that the supplies needed for nitrogen hypoxia are widely available for purchase (Dkt. No. 2-2, Ex. 22 and 23). The Court finds that, at this stage of this case, plaintiffs have demonstrated a significant possibility that nitrogen hypoxia is an available alternative to the Arkansas Midazolam Protocol.



    Parent
    Double insurance against this inhumane plan (none / 0) (#48)
    by Peter G on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 04:52:59 PM EST
    going forward: A federal judge in Arkansas has now issued a 100+-page opinion analyzing the governor's sicko plan and finding it unconstitutional. I think this injunction will stick, at least long enough to derail the speeding death train.

    Parent
    that article refers (none / 0) (#49)
    by linea on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 05:13:57 PM EST
    to the injunction i quote in my previous post.

    her ruling seems to assert that the state should be using nitrogen hypoxia for execution. however, i would expect a scotus case would be required before the first u.s. state could use this method.

    also, i thought it odd that she re-opens the midazolam causing suffering issue when scotus closed it. unless she referenced it to explain why the proposed alternative was better.

    Parent

    Quigley is back from Cyprus... (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by desertswine on Sat Apr 15, 2017 at 01:29:07 PM EST
    he's been investigating Trump's money laundering.  This has got legs.

    Here's a question for you, Jeralyn. (none / 0) (#1)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 14, 2017 at 05:02:58 PM EST
    What would you do with a clownish and self-absorbed client who's apparently hellbent on ingratiating himself publicly as a focus of a burgeoning political scandal, even up to the point where he's in danger of recklessly implicating himself in some potentially serious crimes?

    I'm speaking, of course, of Carter Page, who seems to be operating under the delusional assumption that all this current media attention regarding his contacts with both Russia and the Trump campaign represents some sort of lucky break and fabulous opportunity for him as a business consultant. He's talking to anyone who invites him on their show:

    "We'll see what comes out in this FISA transcript. ... Something may have come up in a conversation. I have no recollection, and there's nothing specifically that I would have done that would have given people that impression. Someone may have brought it up. And if it was, it was not something I was offering or that someone was asking for."
    - <Carter Page to George Stephanopolous, "Good Morning America," ABC News (April 13, 2017)

    "We'll see what comes out in this FISA transcript." One can only wonder why the Trump campaign took so long to kick Page to the curb last August or September. If he has an attorney, then that lawyer must be the muse for the scriptwriters on "Better Call Saul." Somebody, please, save this silly man from his own ego and big mouth.

    Oy.

    Armando being too funny on Twitter (none / 0) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 14, 2017 at 08:30:16 PM EST
    Hatewatch tweeted that Auburn University had cancelled Richard Spencer speaking there. Armando responded with first they came for the Nazis.

    Congratulations, ladies! (none / 0) (#7)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 14, 2017 at 09:12:23 PM EST
    The White House has now given its "women's issues" portfolio to Stephen Miller, the guy who wrote Trump's "American Carnage" inaugural address. And in 2005, he also wrote this:

    "Educated women are far more likely than educated men to go into service fields such as teaching and social working-admirable professions but ones that don't pay nearly as well as careers in business. Men sacrifice much as well. Whether it's plumbing toilets, cleaning up sewers or picking up garbage, men tend to do all the dirty work in society. Naturally, the pay for these professions is given a boost because few people are willing to do them."
    - Stephen Miller, "Sorry feminists," The Duke Chronicle (Nov. 22, 2005)

    Now, all you people who've belittled Stephen ever since first grade will really be sorry! "Who's laughing now, Mommy?"

    The Trump White House would do Federico Fellini proud.

    The new Stephen (none / 0) (#14)
    by KeysDan on Sat Apr 15, 2017 at 10:22:06 AM EST
    has sidled up to The Ivankas, noting the change in climate for the old Stephen.

    Parent
    From (none / 0) (#9)
    by FlJoe on Sat Apr 15, 2017 at 08:57:07 AM EST
    the Emperor has no clothes files.
    The Times of London:
    Donald Trump waving from the Queen's royal carriage is not a scenario many would have foreseen a year ago, but it has become a very real prospect, forcing security services to plan an unprecedented lockdown.

    The White House has made clear it regards the carriage procession down the Mall as an essential element of the itinerary for the visit currently planned for the second week of October, according to officials.

    Security sources have warned, however, that the procession will require a "monster" security operation, far greater than for any recent state visit.
    LOL (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Apr 15, 2017 at 09:58:16 AM EST
    What an idiot and an embarrassment to the country. I expect a lot of Brits to spend a lot of time laughing at Trump for this stunt. Maybe they will rescind the invitation based on this nonsense.

    Parent
    He probably thinks she rides up (none / 0) (#17)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Apr 15, 2017 at 12:40:45 PM EST
    In a magic pumpkin coach wearing glass slippers, and everyone is trying to destroy his movie! Make him have "Bad Press!"

    They all loved Obama, nobody did this to him!

    Parent

    Meanwhile, Fredo has an idea. (none / 0) (#23)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Apr 15, 2017 at 07:32:07 PM EST
    A chip of the ol' block, he is. #TotallyOblivious

    Parent
    Trying to stay away from their Tweets lately (none / 0) (#39)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 11:26:44 AM EST
    They aren't beneficial. But then I'm just out of the loop, so...sigh...what did the royal family have to say today?

    Donald Trump tweeted something about the military is getting stronger but we have no choice. He really has set many military families' hair on fire. On Facebook it is worried post after worried post. I'm not worried, my husband and I fought our way to an understanding during Iraq. He says everyone dies, if he dies serving the US that's good with him.

    So many were horribly wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan. Most who served are out or retired or retiring soon. We were already projected to have recruitment difficulties. From the response on Facebook Trump's aggression will affect retention and recruitment. We will have a greater shortfall in recruiting than predicted. How does he plan to make his military stronger without the willing to serve because he is so erratic?

    Parent

    thread cleaned (none / 0) (#20)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Apr 15, 2017 at 02:50:42 PM EST
     

    im watching (none / 0) (#21)
    by linea on Sat Apr 15, 2017 at 05:00:18 PM EST
    the doctor blake mysteries (three seasons on netflix)

    previously recommended by ding7777

    my netflix rant:
    they give it a measly 71% match for me. while "captain america vs iron man" is a whopping 93% match, i assume because, they have absoluttely no understanding why i might like the tv show supergirl (by the way, i absoluttely hate the added faux muscular shoulder-muscles) and not be interested in the iron man or the green hulk movies.

    Why do take that stuff so seriously? (none / 0) (#24)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Apr 15, 2017 at 08:27:42 PM EST
    I've been a Netflix customer for about 9 years now and have never paid any attention to any ratings or suggestions or anything else. I watch what I want to watch, period. If I don't like something, I move on to something else.

    Parent
    My Sony streaming blu ray player still (none / 0) (#34)
    by McBain on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 11:07:44 AM EST
    has the old star rating system but my Roku player (which I use more often) has the less helpful % system.

    The other problem with the Roku/netflix interface is when I'm browsing, if I keep the selector on one show for more than a few seconds it starts giving me a preview.  I called Netflix and asked if there was a way to disable that feature but they said no.

    Parent

    70 years ago today, ... (none / 0) (#22)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Apr 15, 2017 at 07:05:37 PM EST
    ... Jackie Robinson took the field as first baseman for the Dodgers at Ebbets Field in Brooklyn, and thus became the first African-American player in the history of Major League Bseball.

    Today, the now-Los Angeles Dodgers honored both the moment and the man, with a bronze statue of the baseball trailblazer unveiled today outside Left Field Reserve Plaza at Dodger Stadium, the most heavily traversed area of the park. On hand for the occasion were wife Rachel Robinson, Hall of Famers Sandy Koufax and Frank Robinson, former Dodger manager Tommy Lasorda, and recently retired broadcaster Vin Scully, among many others.

    It's a great day to be a baseball fan.

    For anyone who's interested, ... (none / 0) (#25)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Apr 15, 2017 at 08:58:13 PM EST
    ... the 2017 Coachella Valley Music & Arts Festival is happening this weekend in Indio, CA, and is available for viewing via livestream over four separate channels covering the different venues. Over the last decade, this has become one of the premier concert showcases in the entire country. It runs through tomorrow night.

    Have you experienced the (none / 0) (#26)
    by oculus on Sat Apr 15, 2017 at 09:10:43 PM EST
    Icelandic "post-rock" group Sigur Rod heard them at WDH last night w/the mighty LA Phol/Salonen. Waste of a very fine orchestra/conductor.

    "Ros" (none / 0) (#27)
    by oculus on Sat Apr 15, 2017 at 09:11:30 PM EST


    Parent
    These things happen, sometimes. (none / 0) (#28)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Apr 15, 2017 at 09:54:16 PM EST
    Sigur Ros is a pretty decent group, but not one I can listen to for any real length of time as I get bored by them after 30 minutes or so. And a few of their songs are pure fingernails on the chalkboard stuff. I can't imagine them performing live with a symphony orchestra. Sounds like a rather ghastly clash of genres and styles. Last night's show from WDH was livestreamed and I missed it.

    Parent
    WDH was sold out for this multi-day festival. (none / 0) (#29)
    by oculus on Sat Apr 15, 2017 at 10:43:42 PM EST


    Parent
    I noticed they're playing w/L.A. Phil again ... (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Apr 15, 2017 at 11:20:57 PM EST
    ... tonight. Given your expressed opinion of last night's performance, I think I'll pass even if it's livestreamed. Besides, there's a big NCAA Men's Volleyball playoff match tonight between Hawaii and Pepperdine, which is live on TV at 7:00 p.m. So we'll be watching that. The Rainbows are 25-4 and ranked No. 4 in the country.

    Parent
    An acquired taste (none / 0) (#31)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 09:19:02 AM EST


    Parent
    I like that Iceland is so artistically bizarre (none / 0) (#32)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 09:27:57 AM EST
    Sometimes.

    When I last stayed with you in NY and went to the Bjork exhibit at MOMA, she had a room that we were supposed to move around in because you could hear different created musical sounds in different places in the room. There was also a video of her shown on two walls of the enclosed room. Almost no one moved around though, everyone watched the video. I was a little miffed, because people standing in one place prevented others from being able to hear all the sounds that went with the video.

    Parent

    We used to fly Icelandic air (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by fishcamp on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 10:27:18 AM EST
    to Europe for $125 each way from NYC. This was way back when ski racing was truly amateur, and we couldn't accept money from anybody for anything.  It was a long haul with an overnighter in Reykjavik at some strange hotel.  We didn't drink liquor back then, but their beer was good, and strong.  It was all fun back then.

    Parent
    Josh is very interested in Iceland now (none / 0) (#35)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 11:08:31 AM EST
    When he was a little kid Russia fascinated him. He always told me he would one day live in Russia. Not so much now ha ha ha ha! Justice Democrats fixed that :)

    For Josh Iceland is the country where everyone votes, and they didn't get punked by Wall Street like the rest of the world. They go there own way.

    Parent

    But Icelanders did get punked by their own banks. (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 03:18:20 PM EST
    The swift collapse and bankruptcy of Iceland's three largest private financial institutions in 2008 presented a crisis of heretofore unimaginable proportions to them. What happened over there was proportionally much worse than what occurred in our own country.

    The difference between the two was that in Iceland, political and professional retribution for the crisis was both swift and decisive, which then freed Icelanders to do what they had to do to pull the country out of its economic tailspin. It proved a very expensive lesson for them.

    Iceland's recovery has since been far more quicker and more impressive than our own, I think in large part because our own country's political and financial leadership weren't compelled to pay much of a price, if any at all, for their own respective roles in precipitating the 2008 economic meltdown.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Icelandair is one of the better discount carriers. (none / 0) (#44)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 02:57:45 PM EST
    I flew the airline the first time I went to Europe while in college, JFK to Reykjavik to Luxembourg. Reykjavik has since developed a reputation as popular party, pub crawl and nightlife destination for 20-somethings from both Europe and North America.

    Parent
    In the 60's (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 05:27:51 PM EST
    US military was restricted on off base visits. Possible but difficult. Blacks in particular were not wanted.

    And when they needed a hangar to work on their aircraft we would have to pull ours out...no matter the weather or our needs.

    The fact that we were keeping the Soviets from gobbling them up never seemed to concern them.

    So I'm glad they seem to have changed but like too many in Europe their freedom was purchased by us.


    Parent

    not actually (none / 0) (#52)
    by linea on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 05:58:48 PM EST
    but like too many in Europe their freedom was purchased by us.

    it's more like this (roughly):

    iceland was neutral in ww2. britain demanded that iceland host british military ships and personnel and when iceland refused; britain invaded iceland.

    Parent

    Actually WWII was over in '45 (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 06:19:45 PM EST
    Beyond that Iceland is on a strategic location. If England hadn't seized it the Germans would have...and then the Soviets at the end of the war IF we, or England, didn't grab it first.

    Given our great reluctance to seize territory after the war...see Eastern Europe. Plus the communists tried to seize Greece...

    By the mid 60's we used it as an Air Early Warning (AEW)base to launch barrier flights to the north east up to Murmansk and back and a western Barrier up to north/west of Greenland. Purpose was to look for missiles and bombers from the USSR coming over. Supposedly we could spot a missile and that would give us enough time to launch back. Mutually Assured Destruction - MAD.

    So yes indeed. We purchased their freedom just as we did the Germans, French, et al by staying in Europe.

    Parent

    The British Royal Navy first occupied Iceland ... (none / 0) (#54)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 06:15:54 PM EST
    ... in April 1940 ("Operation Fork") to forestall a possible German occupation after the fall of Denmark, the island then being a Danish dependency. With British military resources eventually stretched to their absolute limit, the U.S. agreed in July 1941 -- five months before Pearl Harbor, mind you -- to assume the U.K.'s role on the island as occupier, and our Army supplanted the British marines, who were then redeployed to the Royal Navy base at Scapa Flow in Scotland.

    We just never left after the war was over.

    Parent

    Slight correction: (none / 0) (#58)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 06:50:46 PM EST
    Denmark was occupied by Germany on April 9, 1940. Left alone suddenly, local Icelandic authorities initially tried to declare neutrality in the war.

    But since it was under the Danish crown per the 1918 Act of Union and further, because Denmark's King Christian X was effectively under the control of the Nazi occupation, the Royal Navy effectively seized Iceland four weeks later to preclude any possible German designs on the island.

    Local authorities in Reykjavik initially protested, but because London promised to not interfere in Iceland's internal affairs, offered generous financial compensation to residents and pledged to withdraw at the end of the war, Icelanders quickly accommodated themselves to the new state of affairs and cooperated fully with the Allies.

    Following a public plebiscite held by citizens under American sponsorship, Iceland formally declared its independence from Nazi-occupied Denmark on June 17, 1944. The U.S. and Great Britain immediately recognized the new nation.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Sad but not surprising (none / 0) (#36)
    by McBain on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 11:10:10 AM EST
    Innocent people going to jail in New Orleans.
    Past and current attorneys of the New Orleans Public Defenders Office tell Anderson Cooper they believe innocent clients have gone to jail because they lacked the time and resources to defend them properly. The system is so overburdened that in 2016 New Orleans Chief Public Defender Derwyn Bunton began ordering his staff to refuse to take on clients facing the most serious felonies.
    What's the fix? (none / 0) (#37)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 11:13:38 AM EST


    Parent
    It would be nice to have fewer poor people (none / 0) (#38)
    by McBain on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 11:20:57 AM EST
    that would solve many problems.  Somehow convincing prosecutors and judges not to overcharge/over sentence would help too.  

    Parent
    How do we have fewer poor (none / 0) (#40)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 11:30:06 AM EST
    In the South?

    We are leaving here soon, much to my great relief. There aren't middle class jobs here. The people also vote against anything that would shore them up. They put people in office over and over again that only work to keep the South full of poverty and suffering.

    Parent

    Here in GA (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 12:51:15 PM EST
    we had rural hospitals closing, people losing their jobs and their access to healthcare and they voted for more of the same. It's no wonder these people are so angry but they completely fell for Don the Con. You would think at this point they would recognize a con coming at them but the fantasy world someone promises is better than the reality with them.

    Parent
    It makes me sad (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 02:12:01 PM EST
    But angry too

    I am grateful that McBain is concerned. I am even more grateful McBain answered poverty....I agree, I agree, I agree

    But nothing that Trump is proposing will fix that. Still people believe Reagonics worked. It didn't destroy H.W. Bush's presidency, even though it did. It didn't create a new era of poverty that Bill Clinton attempted to address with the earned income credit and great government funded childcare, even though it did. And the childcare was destroyed by Republicans...but they don't dare touch the earned income credit or they'd all be instantly voted out. Trump economics are trying to mimic Reagan, making many of the same arguments. But Reaganomics have been nothing but a poverty generator.

    Parent

    I figure they (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Apr 16, 2017 at 07:45:13 PM EST
    are going to have to learn hard lessons. If you look at George W. Bush's economic record and the GOP was calling him "son of Reagan" and what happened it's pretty obvious.

    I lived through the 80's. The misery index was higher during Reagan than it ever was under Obama. Clinton had the 4th lowest misery index in the last 50 years.

    Parent

    Reaganomics (none / 0) (#91)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 10:30:25 AM EST

    Looks pretty good.  Particularly compared to Obama.

    Parent
    Nope (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 12:17:20 PM EST
    sorry it doesn't. Too bad so sad for all those conservative apologists out there. The misery index was high the entire time Reagan was in office. Not only was there high unemployment but there were high costs.

    Parent
    Did you even look at the link? (none / 0) (#96)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 01:34:55 PM EST

    Household income grew for every age cohort under Reagan, unlike the presidents that followed. Older folks really took it in the shorts under Obama.

    Parent
    Reaganomics is great if you've (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 02:09:41 PM EST
    adopted the mentality that mankind will leave the biosphere uninhabitable no matter what we do, and therefore it doesn't matter if we poison the air, water, and soil now or later; obliterate entire species now or later..

    Reagan was a follower of the Christian dispensationalist Hal Lindsey of "The Late Great Planet Earth" infamy. He had an apocalyptic mindset, spiced further by the beginnings of early onset Alzheimers..

    People like him and all his backward-looking Milton Friedman-clone advisers are the Captain Ahabs steering our "ship of state" on a collision course with reality.

    Reagan's vision was-is like evil Mother Goose rhymes for conservative preschoolers.

    Parent

    You must have been a child then (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 03:29:54 PM EST
    Household income grew for every age cohort under Reagan, unlike the presidents that followed. Older folks really took it in the shorts under Obama.

    This is what intelligent people are up against, fatuous, untrue statements taken as fact by conservatives.  In order to get elected, Ronald Reagan made a treasonous deal with the Iranians holding American hostages.  (Richard Nixon had also made a treasonous deal with Vietnam before his own election. It's a Republican predisposition, since more recently Mr. Trump made a deal with Russia in order to be elected.)

    RR tripled the national debt in eight years.  Yes, some of that borrowed money went into incomes, but most went into military.

    RR decided to tax previously un-taxed Social Security benefits, which reduced their value by 20+%.  He also borrowed from the SS funds for a military build-up, even though the law establishing SS specified that all monies collected were to be returned to those who had paid into the fund.  (GWB also borrowed {"stole"} SS funds to finance Iraq off the books.)  If there really is a SS "crisis," you can blame Mr. Reagan for it, with GWB in a supporting role.

    IOW, old people took it in the shorts and in several other orifices from Republicans.

    I remember during the '80s talking to a friend who was a professor at the University of California -- and a Republican. I said, "John, you have a PhD. You have to know that Reagan is a moron.  Why would you vote for a moron?"

    John agreed that Reagan was stupid, and qualified his support thus, "...but he makes good appointments."  That too was untrue, since the Reagan administration surpassed the Nixon administration as the most corrupt in American history.

    So what, exactly is it that you liked about a treasonous, deficit-exploding, corrupt administration that hurts retired people?

    Parent

    Sooooo true (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Apr 19, 2017 at 08:14:13 AM EST
    He left one hell of a mess for everyone else to clean up.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 03:53:22 PM EST
    I did and Clinton beat the shorts off all of them in those bar graphs. What you don't realize is that if they got 5% growth in income they were paying 14% interest on everything under Reagan therefore were losing income. The small income growth in no way made up for the large cost increases that happened under Reagan. That is why the misery index is a much better model to look at.

    I know apologists are gonna apologize and all but seriously you guys need to get out of the world of "alternative facts".

    Parent

    Look more closely (none / 0) (#111)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 07:19:47 PM EST
    Reagan had positive growth on all three age groups. Clinton did better only in the youngest group and showed income loss in the oldest group, unlike Reagan.  

    Parent
    A very tiny difference (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Yman on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 08:20:21 PM EST
    ... in one very narrow (4 year) age group.

    Surprising it wasn't larger, given that Reagan combined massive tax cuts with massive spending.  Trends to result in income growth in the short term and massive deficits in the longer term.

    Parent

    There were no net tax cuts (none / 0) (#118)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Apr 19, 2017 at 08:36:26 AM EST
    Tax revenue was greater under Reagan every year than any previous year.

    Parent
    I assume (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by mm on Wed Apr 19, 2017 at 09:00:54 AM EST
    you are crediting the increased tax revenue to the tax increases passed under Reagan in 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987 & 1988?

    Parent
    Seriously? (none / 0) (#127)
    by Yman on Wed Apr 19, 2017 at 08:13:42 PM EST
    He cut taxes while massively increasing spending, causing growth in the short term and debt in the long term.

    BTW - Your latest claim is also false.  Total tax revenue fell from 1982-83.  So they increased every year but one under Reagan, which is almost as good as Clinton's terms ...

    .... and the same as Obama.

    Parent

    Should have been clearer (none / 0) (#128)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sat Apr 22, 2017 at 05:56:20 PM EST
    Higher tax revenue than any year previous to his administration.

    In any case it seems we're in agreement, increasing spending faster than the substantial increases in tax revenue results in deficit.

    Parent

    The results of Reagan policies (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 12:30:48 PM EST
    Didn't begin to affect the economy drastically immediately. H.W. Bush paid the price for them.

    Parent
    If you claim a delay is in effect (none / 0) (#100)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 02:04:17 PM EST
    then Clinton profited from what GHWB did.

    ;-)

    Parent

    Correct (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Apr 18, 2017 at 10:13:59 PM EST
    Clinton profited from what GHWB did.

    GHWB screwed the pooch, which is guaranteed to help your opponent.  He had to live with the consequences of Reagan's burn rate, as you point out.

    Parent

    Actually the economy was (none / 0) (#115)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Apr 19, 2017 at 07:43:41 AM EST
    recovering before the election and then took a dip after the election before coming back.

    A little commented on fact is that oil prices dropped. I remember .97 cents/gal gasoline.

    Parent

    Yep... (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 19, 2017 at 09:42:50 AM EST
    cheap oil and the internet made the late 90's economy very very good for some, and a little less bad for those the "good" economies always forget.

    Looking at the macro picture...doesn't matter if it's Brand D or Brand R running the White House and/or Congress...it's been all down hill for working stiffs for 40 years as corporate and government power consolidated, while unions and workers lost power gained by the blood, sweat, and tears of the heroes of the labor movement.  

    Parent

    You have a good point but I'm (none / 0) (#122)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Apr 19, 2017 at 12:57:40 PM EST
    not sure about your time frame.

    The 90's were great for me because I was in telecom. And they were good for most of the trades as the housing boom kept booming. CA and WA kept exporting people with lots of cash in their pockets from the sale of their homes... They'd hit Denver and pay cash for a house and buy Momma a new SUV...And I loved the run up in home prices...and the NASDAQ.

    But the NASDAQ bubble burst in 3/2000...lost 50% of its value in the next 12 months and then 9/11 blew everything up...and oil prices started creeping up and jumped to around $150/barrel in 2008 which exacerbated the bursting of the housing bubble and the growth has not been their since then. The middle and lower have lost while the wall streeters have gotten rich off the money Obama loaned them.....Fed rate at near 0 and car loans at 12% and credit cards at 18%..

    And all of this elected Trump. Can he flip it? I don't know but I think he is trying.

    But watch the gasoline prices.

    Parent

    I think... (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 19, 2017 at 02:43:16 PM EST
    if Trump wanted to try, and that's a big if, he would not have a clue where to start.  

    Cutting taxes for those Wall Street scammers and the rest of the 1% has been tried and failed...and that appears to be a centerpiece of the Trump "plan", or lack there of.

    I do agree that it helped deliver Trump the White House...people do some dumb sh&t when they feel desperate and hopeless and are served dogs to kick on a platter of spin.  What they do in 2018 and 2020 when it becomes clearer that Trump is a sad(!) fraud is both frightening (bigger league demagogue?) or hopeful (guaranteed income, single payer, Star Trek "good of mankind" sh*t?).

    Parent

    Trump is doing what he said he would do (1.00 / 1) (#124)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Apr 19, 2017 at 02:54:19 PM EST
    but has been blocked by the courts on the Muslim issue and Obamacare. He'll win the Muslim thing. I have no idea on Obamacare. Truth is there is no answer except single payer... And Trump is not a conservative...so who know?

    If jobs come back nothing else will matter.

    Parent

    Wrong again (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 19, 2017 at 06:12:39 PM EST
    he didn't say "I'll try"; he spun his agenda to the rubes like it was all a foregone conclusion.

    Trump made a loyalty pledge to the GOP; the folks who think single payer is the first step toward state socialism.

    Can you name even ONE single payer advocate he's hired? No you can't.

    Parent

    He was not (none / 0) (#125)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Apr 19, 2017 at 03:44:46 PM EST
    blocked in the courts with Obamacare. Paul Ryan would not even bring it up for a vote because he knew it was going to fail. The courts have said time and again you can't have a religious litmus test for entrance to the country. He keeps losing on the Muslim ban too over and over.

    The economists have projected a loss of 3.5 million jobs under Trump. We'll see if that comes to pass but more than likely from what we've seen so far those jobs Trump promised are not coming back because it was all a scam in the first place. Nobody is buying coal. It's a dying resource and Trump can't make people buy it. Despite the fantasies of a lot of conservatives you can't create things out of thin air.

    Parent

    Friday Open Thread | 123 comments (123 topical)

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