home

Wednesday Morning Open Thread

I have court this afternoon and I understand Jeralyn does as well.

Another one of those days here at TalkLeft. This is an Open Thread.

< Rahmbo's Loyalty | Wednesday Afternoon Open Thread >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Dubai Police Chief... (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 09:41:07 AM EST
    wants to have Netanyahu and the head of Mossad locked up over that shady murder of the Hamas dude.

    Makes sense...if Hamas sent a hit squad to Israel or the US...we'd do more than seek arrest warrants.

    saw that (none / 0) (#2)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 09:42:24 AM EST
    interesting

    Parent
    They took out a stone cold killer (none / 0) (#180)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:21:21 PM EST
    Good for them. The world is better off.

    Parent
    Haven't you told me in the past... (none / 0) (#185)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:28:10 PM EST
    that taking the law into your own hands is no good?

    I'd feel better about it if it was some loved one of a suicide bomber victim getting themselves some justice...but I can't get down with governments officially sanctioning summary execution.  I realize the Israelis have admitted nothing, but it don't take Sherlock Holmes to figure this one out.

    Parent

    Go read my new diary (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by scribe on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:32:05 AM EST
    You scooped Greenwald! (none / 0) (#21)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:34:48 AM EST
    That's 'cause I listen to German radio (none / 0) (#59)
    by scribe on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:31:15 AM EST
    You won't see this story in English-language media for days, if at all.  I heard it within a couple hours of the decision being handed down.  Last night I blew off translating it in favor of hockey on TV.

    And the NYT mention of it is way, way down in the agate type.  IF you weren't looking for it, you'd never have seen it.

    Parent

    Froomkin on Rahm (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:04:34 PM EST
    Doesn't this just say it all (5.00 / 2) (#176)
    by esmense on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:17:55 PM EST
    "Emanuel is a Bush Democrat - but not in that he has learned the lesson about the value of holding firmly to core values. He is a Bush Democrat in that he has allowed Republicans to traumatize him into submission."

    Although in Rahm's case I don't know that he has been "traumatized" into submission as much as he has just been happy to, and found it personally to his benefit to, submit.

    Parent

    no (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:23:56 PM EST
    actually that is the fall back plan.  for months it has been nothing will pass.  that clearly is not working any more so it has permutated to the new version.

    and I dont read orange.  and if you think talk left is going to be surrendered to the pumas you are wrong.


    heh (5.00 / 4) (#152)
    by CST on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:56:24 PM EST
    "Another one of those days here at TalkLeft"

    ain't that the truth

    there will be (none / 0) (#179)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:20:12 PM EST
    more

    Parent
    I put this in the last open (3.00 / 3) (#39)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:11:13 AM EST
    but I think its worth repeating when a member of the MSM calls lying republicans liars.

    plus I know how much the pumas hate Maddow.


    I think (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:20:26 AM EST
    it's newsworthy when someone on a TV news show does their damn job, instead of acting like a cheerleader.

    So Rachel finally decided to do her job.  Congrats to her.

    Parent

    she has been doing her (4.00 / 3) (#52)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:22:10 AM EST
    job since she went on the air.  actually.
    and damn well.


    Parent
    I disagree (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:49:26 AM EST
    Using air time to make fun of people with junior high humor by calling them a sex act pretty much makes you lose credibility.

    Tear apart their polices - leave the 6th grade maturity level elsewhere.  Just makes her like Beck and O'Reilly.  She's supposedly smarter than that.

    Parent

    what (4.00 / 3) (#74)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:53:35 AM EST
    a surprise

    Parent
    So you think Jr High school humor (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:43:21 PM EST
     like saying "teabaggers" is good journalism? Any reasonable observer would think it's unprofessional.

    Parent
    personally (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:52:53 PM EST
    I am a little sick of village "professionalism"
    they called themselves teabaggers after all.
    I could find the pics of them decked out in teabags if you like.


    Parent
    Keep callin' 'em... (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:00:39 PM EST
    as you see 'em...I, for one, prefer some colorful language to stoic p.c. professionalism.  

    Parent
    Actually (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:01:00 PM EST
    They call themselves "Tea-Partiers" or "Members of the Tea Party".

    Kinda like the "Coffee Party"

    Parent

    PUMAs hate Maddow? Interesting, (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:26:18 AM EST
    espec. since I don't watch her.  How do you know this stuff?

    Parent
    plus (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:32:25 AM EST
    if you have cable and are a progressive and you dont watch her you are missing out on the best news rundown of the day.
    her show has been absolutely phenomenal.  day after day calling out the lies and distractions like no one else.

    she is my new hero.
    did you watch that clip?  when was the last time you heard some one in her chair speak truth like that?
     

    Parent

    I favor BBC on PBS radio. (5.00 / 4) (#64)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:35:05 AM EST
    you are never going to hear (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:43:49 AM EST
    Chuck Grassley, John McCain, Lamar Alexander and Orin Hatch called liars (which they absolutely are) on BBC and certainly not PBS with their new corporate overlords.

    it way past time we called liars liars.


    Parent

    Cokie Roberts called them liars (5.00 / 4) (#76)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:55:30 AM EST
    on PBS months and months ago.

    Parent
    I suppose (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:57:16 AM EST
    a stopped clock is right twice a day.
    and I cant think of a more stopped clock.

    Parent
    That's how (5.00 / 4) (#92)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:33:45 PM EST
    some of us feel about Rachel Maddow.....

    Parent
    I know (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:57:38 PM EST
    the difference it she is a progressive and Cokie is a republican.


    Parent
    She is an apologist for death squads (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:28:17 PM EST
    I cannot stand Cokie Roberts (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:26:05 PM EST
    This is why:

    Interview said to be influenced by law firm

    While working in Guatemala, Sister Dianna Ortiz, a Catholic nun from New Mexico, was raped and tortured by members of a death squad until a US supervisor recognized that she was from the US.[13] Although there was no doubt of Ortiz's torture and ample evidence to corroborate her claims of an American supervisor, Roberts insisted that Ortiz was lying in a 1996 interview with Ortiz on the TV show "Nightline." Roberts' brother, Tom Boggs, working for the law firm of "Patton, Boggs, & Blow," was paid by the Guatemalan military to promote a more positive image of the death squads and the military dictatorship in Guatemala.[14] This incident caused a tremendous amount of scrutiny into other potential nepotistic relationships within the media.[citation needed

    She supports her brother's support of the Death Squads....First non-right winger that I've found like that....


    Parent

    afaiac (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:27:48 PM EST
    she is the absolute worst.  the very worst the village has to offer.

    period.


    Parent

    Yeah. (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:28:55 PM EST
    I can't stand either of them - Roberts or Maddow.

    Parent
    Dont get me started (none / 0) (#155)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:59:06 PM EST
    on Nightline. If I wasnt prone to believing the evidence of my senses, I might've expected Koppel, post-retirement, to immediately check into a hospital to have his nose surgically removed from "Dr Kissinger"..Nightline's seeming nightly interpreter of all things relating to foreign policy.

    The scenario you described, vis a vis Roberts, fits  the Nightline mo to a T.  

    Parent

    just to be clear (none / 0) (#78)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:59:01 AM EST
    she called them liars?

    she used the word?

    if thats true I am honestly impressed.  

    Parent

    Poor Rachel...wait til she finds out (5.00 / 4) (#94)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:34:28 PM EST
    that Cokie is in the running to be your new hero.

    Parent
    actually (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:53:56 PM EST
    I dont believe it.
    I will believe she used those words when I hear it.


    Parent
    I can't find it. What I recall is Cokie (none / 0) (#110)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    Roberts talking about the GOP in Congress and the drafting of the stimulus bill.  Grassley stating what he wanted.  Getting it.  And then voting against the bill.  Roberts sd. GOP does this again and again.  Why should Dems. care what they want in the bill?

    Parent
    that sounds like something (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:11:26 PM EST
    she would say.
    Maddow called the liars.  several times.

    which is exactly what they are.

    Parent

    Last time I read a fawning comment like (5.00 / 3) (#91)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:29:37 PM EST
    yours was ...  let's see.. the last time I went to Big Orange, and it could have been about anyone from Keith Olberman to that one Democratic House member who's got a big mouth, who they love over there--or about someone on Air America.


    Parent
    Look In The Mirror (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:52:23 PM EST
    You epitomize what you detest. Two sides of the same coin, imo.

    Parent
    really? At least Rachel gets paid (none / 0) (#113)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:09:56 PM EST
    for her services.

    Parent
    when she says five or six (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:56:51 PM EST
    times in the course of that clip that healthcare is "going to pass", it not hard to predict reactions here.


    Parent
    In other words, when she cheerleads, (5.00 / 3) (#111)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:04:50 PM EST
    you cheer.


    Parent
    no (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:12:32 PM EST
    you see, in spite of what bounces around here day after day, it IS going to pass.


    Parent
    Man (none / 0) (#139)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:39:20 PM EST
    they really are on a suicide mission aren't they?

    Parent
    That's definitely the odd (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by dk on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:45:57 PM EST
    thing to me too.  I mean, maybe the Obama/Stupak/Nelson bill will pass, maybe it won't.  If the Democratic leadership wants it to pass, it will.

    But that they think that passing this bill is a) good policy and b)good politics is what I have a hard time understanding.  I mean, look at what happenned here in MA.  Liberals know a bad healthcare bill when they see one, and that's why enough sat on their hands to throw the election to Brown.  It really is something that the national democrats think that a law that bails out health insurance companies and restricts women's rights will help them politically.  A real headscratcher.

    Parent

    I think that was intended for the (none / 0) (#142)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:42:24 PM EST
    "it will pass"
    if so, no they are not.  when this passes and people find out what actually in it, they will like it.

    honest republicans have actually admitted this is why they are worried.  and they should be.


    Parent

    Actually (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:47:41 PM EST
    the bill is bad. It does nothing to control costs and they are going to skyrocket and Obama is goign to get blamed because he insisted that this crap bill pass. The Dems have managed to back themselves into a lose/lose situation and they are picking the worst option. The problem si that as Howard Dean said if the voting public doesnt see IMMEDIATE benefit from this bill (which it will not) then it is not a positive.

    Republicans are NOT worried about this bill. Scott Brown owes his Senate seat to this bill if you remember.

    Obama is ocmpletely ignoring the economy to shovel crap and you tell me how that works out?

    Parent

    let me ask you a serious question (5.00 / 2) (#149)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:54:13 PM EST
    if the republicans REALLY believed that, as Alexander says, this is a kamikaze mission for democrats do you honestly believe they would be doing every single thing in their power to stop it.

    really?

    I think you are smarter than that.


    Parent

    I won't say I thought you were smarter: (5.00 / 2) (#156)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:59:47 PM EST
    Do you expect Republicans to suddenly start supporting a bad bill so the Democrats will be hurt? That makes no sense. The Democrats need to own the bill completely. In the meantime, the Republicans will try to gum up the works as much as possible.
    Also, the devil is in the details---it's simpler for the Republicans to win by blocking the bill.


    Parent
    Um, sure. (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by dk on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:00:03 PM EST
    Republicans know that if the Democrats really want to pass the bill, they can.  And, they know the effects of the bill will be unpopular with just about everyone on the left and the right because it is bad policy, doesn't control costs, helps the for-profit insurance industry at the expense of real people, and is anti-woman.  So, they fight tooth and nail against it, knowing that it is all Kabuki and the Democrats have the votes to pass whatever they want to anyway.  If the Democrats decide not to pass it, they declare victory.  If the Democrats do pass it, they claim they did everything to stop an upopular bill.

    Voila.


    Parent

    Obama has handed the Republicans a (5.00 / 2) (#199)
    by esmense on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:41:36 PM EST
    win win situation. He has praised and touted the fact that his plan is based on Republican ideas over and over again, called a summit to make that point even more explicit, and now, as a result of the summit, is including even more of their "good ideas" in the bill.

    So, where's the downside to their "no" votes? They can claim any success the plan has as their own based on the fact that Obama used their ideas. Yet, at the same time, with their "no" vote, they can safeguard themselves from any of its failures.

    Parent

    The GOP (none / 0) (#175)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:17:48 PM EST
    is trying to stop it all costs because they know being against this piece of garbage has been shown to win elections for them. Look at the unemployment extension. They caved on that didnt they? They knew that would hurt them. Of course, they ALWAYS make a show of being against some things at first.

    Parent
    Actually#2 (5.00 / 3) (#207)
    by christinep on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:52:31 PM EST
    There is another "actually." You say the bill is "bad," and I say that it is "good." It is far from perfect...obviously. Yet, what is also obvious the longer this debate goes on is that we all wind ourselves in knots. I am not willing to wait another generation (or more) to have the perfect progressive bill. From the beginning, I supported the public option and the side-by-side competition that the concept (if not the reality) would produce. But, even more important to me, is the "getting off the dime" to expand healthcare to millions, to provide some urgent regulation of some particularly noxious & inhumane practices, to project budget neutral while also projecting lower costs--sometimes by more than half with applicable subsidies--for most people, to expanding by 1/3 Medicaid, etc.  Those are big gains--they may not be what you wanted; but, it is more than a solid start after several decades that we as a body politic have wrangled with it. So, please, lets focus a bit on the future rather than the drone and whine of what might have been.

    Parent
    You seem to be under the impression (5.00 / 10) (#172)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:16:52 PM EST
    that we're all just tuning in every night to hang on Rachel's every word, but I can assure you that we're not - I'm not, anyway and I've a feeling I am not alone.

    Rachel's banging the drum and shaking the pom-poms for this miserable legislation because it's all part of the "say it and it will be so" garbage that's been going on all over the Village for over a year now.  Oh, they were going to pass it before the summer recess, and then they were going to pass it before the holidays, and then, and then...and here we are in March, and they've not only not put a bill on the president's desk, they've managed to take a compromised-from-Jump-Street "plan" and make it weaker and weaker over time.

    Oooh...how masterful.

    No one's angry because Rachel Maddow apparently has a Master's Degree in Village Wankery - I think there's a correspondence course for that -  we're angry because over a year has been wasted on a cr@p bill that will do little more than make sure the insurance industry's stranglehold continues, only with even more people to soak for outrageous premiums - and get fined by the government if they don't.

    Once in a while, you might try getting some information from sources who aren't all found on the TV, but then you might not be able to use "puma" as your one and only argument when you meet resistance, and what fun would that be?

    Parent

    The last time I saw her show (5.00 / 4) (#135)
    by cenobite on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:28:38 PM EST
    She had Ezra Klein on spouting village CW about the House needing to just pass the Senate HCR bill already, it's so easy!

    Ms. Maddow was completely uncritical about this, despite the fact that it was clear that the House dislikes the Senate bill and the Speaker said she doesn't have 100 votes for it.

    So calling people on their mendacity? Not so much.


    Parent

    True, she lets Ezra talk (5.00 / 2) (#170)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:14:48 PM EST
    without much challenge....

    But, otoh, she has been a strong supporter of the public option and calling out conservative democrats....she coined the term "Conservadem"....

    I think she will be around for a long time....She has the equivalent of a Ph.D. from Oxford...but yet does not have an iota of being condescending...goofy, perhaps, but not arrogant....and always very, very bright....

    As to her humor, sometimes I find it irritating....but PBS is not what it once was--don't be fooled by the monotone delivery....Aside from Terri Gross--you are getting the Village read on things....

    Maddow has much more substance than most....

    Parent

    Which public option did she (5.00 / 2) (#178)
    by dk on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:19:34 PM EST
    support?  The original idea that would be open to well over 100 million Americans, or what made it into the House bill that would only have been open to a fraction of that number.  Or did she ellide over the distinction?  Did she discuss that the public option that actually made it into the house bill would do little to cut costs, and would still leave the US paying twice as much, if not more, for healthcare than other industrialized nations?

    Just trying to understand what kind of substance we're talking about.

    Parent

    By that standard, (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:30:54 PM EST
    you probably don't like many on the progressive side of things at all....

    No, she has not gone into that level of detail but I haven't seen anyone in broadcast journalism do that either....

    And, I really don't fault her for not discussing a plan that is not on the table at all....

    She took a very hard hit at for-profit insurance companies' role in health care....the best I've seen at doing that....could have laid a good foundation for single payer, and actually got me thinking of the full-on socialized medicine done in Britain....

    You can find fault with anyone--it all depends on the standard that you use.  By stacking the deck in imposing a very high standard, you ensure a negative assessment....

    Parent

    Well, sure, but then (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by dk on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:47:16 PM EST
    I wouldn't call anyone who didn't go into that kind of substance progressive.  There are people out there who do actually discuss the substance of the bills in Congress.  I doubt any of them work for corporate sponsored cable networks, though.  

    Parent
    Was she even 'for Obama'? (none / 0) (#141)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:42:11 PM EST
    I don't even know what they're talking about in this regard. Did she say she was 'for Obama' or something during the primaries? I do not recall that.

    In any case, I've never liked her style or approach, even though she is smart. Too bombastic.

    Parent

    by their reactions (3.50 / 2) (#58)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:29:48 AM EST
    to references to her.
    she was staunchly for Obama you see.  so it doesnt matter what she does now.


    Parent
    Nothing else she'll (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:21:11 PM EST
    ever do will make up for her supporting the OTHER moderate to center-right candidate..

    Parent
    Truly sad (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:27:35 PM EST
    how people keep score on this basis....

    Rachel is very smart, thorough and fearless.

    Parent

    I am stunned (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:28:44 PM EST
    sometimes with her fearlessness.


    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:31:46 PM EST
    It takes a lot of guts to call people names or make stupid jokes across a desk from someone (especially if they are on satellite across the country).

    Parent
    Watch her on Meet the Press (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:01:16 PM EST
    She directly confronts conservatives sitting 2' away....I haven't seen anyone drop the phony pretense of buddy-buddy, yuk-yuk civility of the Village like her.  She wasn't rude or petty but was persistent.

    She has had some contentious interviews with people--while giving them a fair shot to talk--unlike O'Reilly....

    You may not like some of her humor but her reporting, analysis and interviewing skills are crackerjack.....

    Parent

    Strange how people don't understand (5.00 / 6) (#153)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:56:29 PM EST
    the simple concept that once a journalist shreds his/her reputation for objective reporting, it's gone forever. No amount of cheerleading will ever make it come back. I'm not actually speaking of Maddow in particular, who I don't know that well; the comment definitely applies to several journalists and bloggers, though.

    Parent
    I am not sure why the pumas (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:05:22 PM EST
    hate Maddow so much--aside from her support of Obama and wanting the primary to send sooner.  Perhaps that is enough to hate her forever....

    But Maddow does provide commentary too, and was giving her opinion, but chose the wrong candidate here according to many....And so, they look not past that...

    I don't think Rachel has ever really lost her credibility on any stories she has reported...  

    Parent

    Yes, her reporting on Israel's war (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:08:03 PM EST
    crimes has been really fantastic, hasn't it?


    Parent
    You know of ANYONE (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:22:58 PM EST
    connected with the MSM who ever goes into any depth about wrongs allegedly committed by the state of Israel?

    Parent
    There's always a handy sheet (none / 0) (#186)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:28:19 PM EST
    to drape over your hero.
    I don't actually have much of an opinion about Maddow. What I dislike, viscerally, is hero worship of a TV personality. Also, it's not right if someone is called a good journalist for using the word "liar".
    Now, if she says the US tortured prisoners, instead of using "enhanced interrogation methods", that would mean something (and maybe she has---I don't know).

    Parent
    she has (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:35:39 PM EST
    many times actually.

    Parent
    and for those slow on the uptake (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:43:57 PM EST
    the hero comment was a joke.  my heros are not talkinging heads.

    she is the best in the broadcast news business working today.

    Parent

    Speaking as a PUMA (5.00 / 3) (#166)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:09:15 PM EST
    I don't hate her. I don't particularly think of her at all. Then again, I don't particularly watch mainstream corporate sponsored news either.

    Parent
    Your comment is funny: (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:10:57 PM EST
    "except for the elephant in the room.."
    You admit she cheered for Obama and wanted the primary to end sooner. Gosh, nice "journalism".

    Parent
    So, that was her opinion (5.00 / 2) (#206)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:49:30 PM EST
    She does opinion too, you know....

    Her entire show is biased in the liberal direction....But her reporting is first rate and her analysis is very good.  But, the purists turn up their noses at her style....

    The common demoninator appears to be she supported Obama....That is what is driving most of the hostility here....Not that she hasn't reported on the wrongs done by Israel, not that she hasn't gone into greater detail about health care....

    Good grief....you guys will shoot all the people on your side for not supporting Hillary....You will have very few people left....


    Parent

    they dont like (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:11:26 PM EST
    her because she is a progressive.  an unapologetic progressive who says what she believes.  

    and of couse she supports the president.


    Parent

    Wow. You believe Obama is progressive? (5.00 / 3) (#174)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:17:32 PM EST
    I haven't found a single person---even an Obama supporter, who still believes that.

    Parent
    your inability to read and understand (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:48:21 PM EST
    a comment is singular.  I said Maddow is a progressive.  and she is.  and she supports the democratic president.  that would not be a shock if you understood that most progressives do.

    Parent
    What does "plus I know how much (5.00 / 8) (#83)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:05:51 PM EST
    the pumas hate Maddow" have to do with Rachel making a statement of the obvious - that Republicans lie?  Couldn't be that you harbor some hatred for the pumas, could it?  Kind of a Tinkers-to-Evers-to-Chance hero-worship triangulation - love the one who's hated by the ones you hate.  Seems like a interesting standard.

    There are a lot of people who don't find Rachel Maddow to be a paragon of journalistic objectivity, but that doesn't make them pumas; Bob Somerby has a fair amount of disdain for her, as does Glenn - does that make them pumas?

    Rachel was one of a number of talking heads who did nothing but cheerlead for Obama all through the primaries, who never asked any hard questions about his record or his positions, and who never missed a chance to bash Hillary Clinton if it elevated Obama. Who engaged in utterly puerile banter about "tea-baggers" for her own amusement and the collective tee-hees it engenders in all the other people who giggle and snort at smutty talk. This is not my definition of a hero, or heroic behavior, but clearly, your standards and mine are miles apart in that area.

    Oh, and if you harbor any ill will toward the "new" Democrats who have so far managed to make a complete clusterf**k out of the last 14 months, you might just be a puma yourself - because as I understand it (not being a card-carrying member of any organized puma movement myself), being puma was more about what the party did than who they did it to.

    Parent

    Anne, (5.00 / 4) (#84)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:10:00 PM EST
    Don't try using logic.

    Parent
    D'oh! (5.00 / 7) (#88)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:26:34 PM EST
    I know - but the whole "hero" worship thing gets to me; sad that we have gotten to the point where someone who occasionally does his or her job is a hero, and we just pretend the cr@ppy parts never happened (except those who so easily throw the "hero" label around probably don't see it for the cr@p it is).

    Let's have a parade!

    Parent

    Glenn criticizes everbody (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:23:50 PM EST
    Rachel has a greater audience and works in a different medium.....

    I wouldn't turn my nose up at Rachel's work....she can be very effective....

    And, yes, I know she supported Obama--that does seem to stick in the craw of many here....

    Parent

    Whether someone supported Obama is (5.00 / 3) (#191)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:32:25 PM EST
    not the issue for me or many others, I'm sure.
    It's how they did it.
    Olbermann? He was highly overrated even in the Bush years---his "special comments" are a stentorian jokes---but after how he "reported" during 2007-2008, no one should trust him.
    Same goes for Markos Moulitsas and JMM, in particular. Markos simply lied, straight up.
    Not sure if JMM did, but his reporting in 2008 was a joke.

    Parent
    Ah, you answered my question to Anne (3.25 / 4) (#197)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:37:42 PM EST
    You guys do use the primary to keep score--I think that is pretty clear....Sad and counterproductive

    Parent
    Excuse me, MKS, (5.00 / 8) (#203)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:46:15 PM EST
    but if you look at the very first comment that incited this ridiculous thread, and the typical comments that it successfully incited, you will see who is keeping score based on the primary. And it includes all you doing the 'PUMA' name-calling. After all, the PUMA concept is a leftover concept about the primaries.

    So, if you disdain score-keeping based on the primaries, and you disdain re-fighting the primary wars, I might suggest that whipping people up with PUMA accusations when they disagree with you about any old thing (like Maddow or Obama, for example) may not be a good idea to achieve your goals.

    Or maybe y'all really do like re-inciting the old primary fights, after all... I don't know.

    Parent

    Anne, do you have a similar view of Josh (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:35:58 PM EST
    Marshall?  Another pro-Obama blogger that is just so much hackery according to too many here....

    He did more to save social security than almost anyone else in 2005....and yet his support for Obama dooms him....

    Parent

    It's similar to people calling Obama (none / 0) (#95)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:41:38 PM EST
    a genius for giving Cantor an 8th grade civics lesson on the importance of food and drug regulation.

    Parent
    genius? (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by CST on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:47:04 PM EST
    No, but it sure was nice to see someone put him in his place.

    Some of these guys could clearly use an 8th grade civics lesson, preferably on national TV.  Cantor is definitely one of them.

    Parent

    isnt that the freaking (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:54:53 PM EST
    truth?

    Parent
    Sure, i didn't have any problem with the (none / 0) (#124)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:21:15 PM EST
    civics lesson, but let's not pretend Obama was showing "mastery" of policy in that and other moments.

    Parent
    so? (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:25:33 PM EST
    why is that a problem?

    Parent
    ot put it another way (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:26:57 PM EST
    I like having a president who is capable of showing mastery of something.
    anything.

    and I love that you are all calling me, ME, a cheerleader.  the person who very nearly voted for McCain.

    its great.  really.


    Parent

    Hmmm, you're not even as objective (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:06:24 PM EST
    as Keith Olbermann.
    When did I ever say I almost voted for McCain??
    I know who Dr. Molly means now, when she says you're a sockpuppet. There's only one other commenter does the PUMA/you voted for McCain dance to deflect criticism. Can't remember who it is, but I see the similarity.
    Probably just hive mentality.

    McCain would have been bad for the country, but he wouldn't have been as bad for the Democrats.
    Heck, Obama is already worse for the Democrats in 1 year than Bush was in 8 for his party.

    Parent

    actually, read more slowly (none / 0) (#169)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:13:17 PM EST
    I said I almost voted for McCain

    Parent
    Weird day (none / 0) (#171)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:15:59 PM EST
    They think you are another commenter.  Full moon?

    Parent
    your guess is as good as mine (none / 0) (#177)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:17:58 PM EST
    ???

    Parent
    Bob Somerby is hardly a PUMA (5.00 / 3) (#188)
    by lambert on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:28:42 PM EST
    It's not his fault Maddow is clueful only when deceptive.

    Parent
    Who knew? (none / 0) (#3)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 09:58:55 AM EST
    I had no idea John Ashcroft lived across the river in Rahwah NJ...and he's still offended by depictions of nudity, this time a snowwoman.

    Seriously, how little of a life do you have to have to drop a dime on a naked snow-woman...people are shot.

    Good snow-sculpting. (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:00:41 AM EST
    Although not a very good copy of the (none / 0) (#25)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:42:23 AM EST
    original:  Venus de Milo

    Parent
    that is so pathetic (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:00:54 AM EST
    so incredibly pathetic

    Parent
    Funny.... but are you aware (2.00 / 0) (#184)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:25:16 PM EST
    That infamous story about him demanding the statues be covered is not true?

    And yes, there was a photo... but they were covered because the hall was being painted.

    Parent

    So, (none / 0) (#6)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:01:41 AM EST
    Charlie Rangel is "taking a leave" as chair of the Ways and Means Committee.

    The congressman made only a brief statement, telling reporters, "If you don't mind, I don't take questions." But he did say that'd told Pelosi "from the very, very beginning" that he was willing to step aside, at least temporarily.

    Of course, that's not what he was saying last night (as many other times):

    Earlier Tuesday evening, Rangel himself publicly refuted news stories that he planned to surrender his gavel.

    Asked after a meeting with Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) if he was still going to be the chairman, Rangel said, "You bet your life."



    I just wish... (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:53:30 AM EST
    they'd send this pic of him on leave...though it does speak 10,000 words on our US Congress, I'm just sick of seeing it...or I'm simply jealous.

    But I'll be taking up a similar pose soon enough...3 weeks!

    Parent

    I love that pic (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:57:06 AM EST
    and charlie.  nothing wrong with taking a vacation.
    and as far as him "changing his position"  he really hasnt.  he is taking a leave until it is settled.  I predict he will be back in the post.

    Parent
    Pelosi names Stark as chairman (none / 0) (#37)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:05:35 AM EST
    Link

    I think he's done.  

    Parent

    for now (none / 0) (#38)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:07:41 AM EST
    Rangel, said he sent House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) a letter requesting the leave. Rangel met with Pelosi to discuss the politically sensitive issue on Tuesday evening.

    In the one-sentence letter, Rangel asked for the leave of absence from the chairmanship until the House ethics panel competes its reviews.



    Parent
    We'll see (none / 0) (#51)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:21:12 AM EST
    It's pretty hard to come back in as the Chair once you've given up the seat.  Even Nancy's support was tepid, at best.

    Parent
    Could he just come back or (none / 0) (#89)
    by republicratitarian on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:26:35 PM EST
    would he have to actually be appointed again?

    Parent
    He would have to be (none / 0) (#93)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:34:13 PM EST
    voted on by the full House.

    It remained unclear whether Mr. Rangel's decision to temporarily remove himself would satisfy the demands by Republicans to permanently remove him from the helm of the committee, which exerts enormous legislative influence in the House as it controls legislation involving taxes and revenues. While Mr. Rangel said he was taking a leave of absence from his post, it was hard to see a way back for him in the current circumstances and political climate.

    The rules of the House make no provision for the temporary departure of a committee chairman. When Mr. Rangel's letter to Speaker Pelosi was read aloud on the House floor on Wednesday morning, Representative Jan Schakowsky, Democrat of Illinois, who was presiding over the chamber, declared: "The resignation is accepted."

    Some lawmakers interpreted that as a ruling that Mr. Rangel's decision to step down was in effect a permanent one. And though Democrats could seek to restore him to the post later, doing so would require a vote by the full House, which presumably he would have serious difficulty winning.



    Parent
    Peter Stark and Nancy Pelosi (none / 0) (#130)
    by KeysDan on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:26:56 PM EST
    must have kissed and made-up, or at least, made-up.   Although, Congressman Stark is next in the seniority line, he got into big trouble with her in Oct 2007 during the discussion of expanding children's health care--something to the effect of  more deaths in Iraq for the amusement of the president.

    Parent
    True... (none / 0) (#41)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:13:43 AM EST
    nothing wrong with a vaca, we all deserve 'em.  The US Congress seems to be on a permanent one though.

    As for his ethics problems, that sh*t bugs me.  Different rules for different fools...it ain't right.  Yeah, its mild compared to other sh*t, but I expect better from a fellow NY'er.

    Parent

    I have no opinion (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:15:10 AM EST
    except that I accept the possibility that he is telling the truth.

    however, I am glad he is stepping aside.  it was a distraction.

    Parent

    The allegations troubling to me (none / 0) (#73)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:53:24 AM EST
    (not a NY voter) were his occupancy of three Section 8 housing units for office use.

    Parent
    I agree (none / 0) (#75)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:54:36 AM EST
    thats the worst


    Parent
    Expect better? (none / 0) (#189)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:29:09 PM EST
    Bro, he is a congress critter. None of them can help themselves..

    BTW - Gonna do a tournament starting Friday. Keep your fingers crossed for me.

    Parent

    I will sir.... (none / 0) (#200)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:41:58 PM EST
    I haven't wagered a dime this year outside some Super Bowl boxes and a $20 Superbowl halftime tourney, been saving for this Mexico trip.  

    I am jonesing for some action hardcore:)

    Parent

    maybe a point? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:01:52 AM EST

    Why We Need to Have Empathy for Tea Party Lunatics

    If we don't understand how decent, god-fearing, victimized people can come to espouse such dangerous ideologies, we won't be able to fight them effectively.

    Good article... (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by BigElephant on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:08:34 AM EST
    That was an interesting take on the Tea Party Lunatics.  The only thing I'd change is that their "decent".  Most people I know in the Tea Party movement (some I've known before the movement began) have always had issues, unrelated to politics as well.  Usually related to social issues (gay, women, race, religious equality).  

    Parent
    true enough (none / 0) (#10)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:11:24 AM EST
    but knowing your enemy is important.

    Parent
    Hmmm... (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:26:09 AM EST
    call me a tea party loon, but I do believe the Fed is up to no good, and government in general does not have the common person's best interests (or the interests of the nation as a whole)in mind.  I fear tyranny and see it rising...though unlike the tea-partiers I've seen the signs my whole adult life, I didn't just start to notice when a black man took the big job.

    I don't know...the author sounds like a head-shrinker making an over-generalized diagnosis of a large group of people.  

    Interesting stuff to ponder though...what makes people tick?

    Parent

    kdog, I suspect your talents (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:33:08 AM EST
    are not being fully realized in your present position.  I see you as a Carville-esque critic of the human condition.  There must be a slot for you somewhere in today's diverse media.

    Parent
    Why thank you oculus... (none / 0) (#23)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:39:11 AM EST
    you are far too kind.  I see myself as one confused knucklehead:)

    Besides...if I did this for a living, what would I do for fun?...:)

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#28)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:45:18 AM EST
    you got an "everyman" thing goin on.

    Parent
    Thats what I always... (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:56:33 AM EST
    hoped I was bringing to the party, an everyman/street perspective...I can't match you cats in the brains department.

    Parent
    sh!t (2.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:58:21 AM EST
    all you need here is some republican talking points.


    Parent
    When I relate your comments to my (none / 0) (#50)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:21:10 AM EST
    daughter she says: what does he look like?  I sd. I don't know.  We each have our opinions though!

    Parent
    here (none / 0) (#56)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:27:48 AM EST
    LOL... (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:31:48 AM EST
    how did you find me out?

    Parent
    Do you have authority to release this? (none / 0) (#62)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:33:36 AM EST
    this (none / 0) (#15)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:28:34 AM EST
    I've seen the signs my whole adult life, I didn't just start to notice when a black man took the big job.

    would be the difference.
    I think he gives them benefit of doubts I would not.
    he calls them decent.  
    I would ad the generality as far as the ones I know, and I know a few, that they are not very bright.

    Parent

    No doubt... (none / 0) (#20)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:34:25 AM EST
    there is a very unsavory underbelly to the movement...I just can't make the leap that they're all racist sexist homophobe rednecks in need of a head-shrinker, this close to movin' to Ruby Ridge.  Some may be, some certainly are not.

    And they have a point on some issues.  And, of course, the inalienable right to express their points and seek regress for their grievances.

    Parent

    well (none / 0) (#27)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:44:14 AM EST
    I have several "family members" who fit the tea party profile.  to a person they are racist sexist homophobic rednecks.  and not very bright.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#30)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:50:34 AM EST
    but don't put them all in there with your family. the ones aroudn here have a ton of issues. Some of them it is about race. Some of them it is about abortion. the ones here don't seem to have any unifying issue other than blaming the government for all their problems.

    Parent
    like he said (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:52:53 AM EST
    you wonder why they suddenly came to that decision when a black guy was elected president.


    Parent
    IIRC (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:20:17 AM EST
    the same thing happening when Clinton was president so it's not new. it wasnt called tea party but it was called militias and tons of other names. the patriot movement was one of the names iirc.

    Parent
    I hope you are not (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:24:09 AM EST
    denying that it has flowered since Obama was elected in ways never dreamed of in Clintons day.

    you never saw mass gatherings of them while Clinton was in office.  or certainly not like now.


    Parent

    No (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:34:31 AM EST
    I dont think that Obama has flowered it anymore than Hillary would have do you? The thing Clinton had going for him that Obama does not was he was able to turn the economy around. They woudl still be doing the same things even if she was President I think that using race as a cover fails to deal with the real problem of these people. Calling them racists is just simplistic and does nothing to defuse them. The problem is that the conservative movement has collapsed. It has been an ajbect failure and tehy just can't accept it despite Obama's repeated attempts to recussitate it. These people have been told to think that the GOP is entitled to the Presidency and anyone with a D beside their name is an illegitimate President.

    Parent
    I dont disagree with that (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:38:04 AM EST
    and I probably dont doubt that it would be almost as bad if Hillary was president.  it has a lot to do with the economic collapse.

    I still think Obama has brought a meanness and racism to it that actually helps to discredit it.


    Parent

    Bailing out WS added fuel to the fire, (none / 0) (#67)
    by nycstray on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:43:43 AM EST
    yes/no?

    Parent
    absurdly yes (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:45:12 AM EST
    can you imagine what they would have done if they had not done that and the economy had totally collapsed.


    Parent
    Only there is little... (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:47:00 AM EST
    to no evidence the economy would have "totally collapsed"...we just had to take a bunch of common thieves in fancy suits word for it.

    Parent
    there is evidence (none / 0) (#71)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:48:07 AM EST
    no one really disagrees that it would have been far worse if they had not done what they did.

    or no one outside and echo chamber.

    Parent

    Far worse... (none / 0) (#79)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:01:43 PM EST
    for those that own yachts, yeah...they might have had to sell them.

    Joe and Jane Blow...I don't know.  If you take any stock in Taibbi he thinks the masters of the universe are right up to their old tricks again, gearing for the next money-grab, err economic apocolypse.

    Parent

    I got my right-winger bro-in-law... (none / 0) (#46)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:17:37 AM EST
    who turned my sister into a right-winger...they are none of that...and they're down with much of the tea-party platform...if not some tea-partiers themselves, for these very reasons.

    Parent
    There seems to be minimal (none / 0) (#86)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:20:01 PM EST
    treatment given to the class aspects of the Teaparty movement in that article, when, imo, it should be placed front and center.

    What pseudo-populist demagogues like Beck, Palin and Whirled Nut Daily's Farah have been doing, to a very large extent, is cunningly tapping into the free floating angst of the victims of all the outsourcing, downsizing and wage stagnation engendered by "we the people" handing over our economic sovereignty to the transnational, trickle down barbarians of "free trade" -- which was the REAL "big bail out" begun decades ago.

    It's hard not to think back to Germany in the early thirties when you look at the dynamics of how this plays out in the present, vis a vis the relationship between Teaparty leaders and their followers: the same sort of quasi-mystical appeals to hearth and home and hyper-nationalism and fear of foreigners (even in the Whitehouse), the same (very calculated) attempts to direct resentment..away from one set of corporate stooges to the OTHER corporate stooges..

    Parent

    Oh please (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:36:45 PM EST
    Have you forgotten the O Bam Ma chants? Young ladies fainting? School children in St Louis marching and chanting?

    And I don't see Beck or Palin as a populist. Not even close. Actually, the exact opposite:

    Link

    Parent

    The exact opposite (5.00 / 2) (#202)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:44:22 PM EST
    so that would be what, favoring the elites over the people (while pretending to speak for the voiceless)?

    Is that why they appeal to you?

    Parent

    The similarities... (none / 0) (#112)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:07:12 PM EST
    are a little unsettling, to be sure. All we are missing are the $5000 loaves of bread.

    One thing I did agree with in the piece...everybody has got a boogey-man...everybody.

    Though some are more rational in their boogey-man selection that others.  Like me and my boogeymen...most rational:)

    Parent

    Feeling that your best interests aren't (5.00 / 4) (#44)
    by esmense on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:16:03 AM EST
    being represented isn't paranoid, it's reality for many, if not most, Americans.

    The difference between these people acting out on the fringe and most others is their inability to discern and articulate, and, most often, their unwillingness or inability to to acknowledge, reasonable causes for their anger, resentment and disappointment.

    Instead, they adopt fantastical explanations and project their anger (at themselves and the people they have placed their trust in) onto scapegoats.

    If you've been falling for the "smaller government, low tax" ruse your entire life, for instance, promoted by "good, Christian people," you may find it easier to blame the "lazy" unemployed, fascist/socilist progressives,  illegal immigrants, etc., for your disappointments and fears than to admit you've been betrayed by your own unreasonable expectations, or by the standards you've used to determine who to trust.

    Parent

    Actually the last President (2.00 / 0) (#198)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:39:46 PM EST
    who was going to reduce the size of government was Clinton.

    He put Al Gore in charge of the program and he also raised taxes.....

    Parent

    So? Where have you been for the last (5.00 / 0) (#208)
    by esmense on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:53:34 PM EST
    30 years? The Republicans have been making this same pitch to these people, and then not following through, since Reagan.

    That sinful, "liberal" "Slick Willie," a man they hate who stands for so many things they hate and fear, is the only politician in that 30 year period to have taken the notion seriously just makes these people more angry and confused, not less so.


    Parent

    like I said (none / 0) (#45)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:17:21 AM EST
    not all that bright.

    Parent
    Yes. You can have empathy for their (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by esmense on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:20:17 AM EST
    fear -- but it doesn't make their stupidity any less dangerous.

    Parent
    I thought Atrios (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:39:13 AM EST
    nailed them earlier this week:

    Tea Baggers

    It kind of fascinates me that people who have never followed politics, never taken a class in public policy, hell sometimes never even voted, all of a sudden think they know how to run a diverse country of 300 million. Not only do they have all the answers, but anyone who disagrees with them are vermin who need to be eliminated. Since they really have nothing substantial to add to the conversation, I'd like to ignore these people, but the media just won't let me.



    Parent
    Printing Replacement Body Parts (none / 0) (#8)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:06:39 AM EST
    Very cool... (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:14:05 AM EST
    ...but a little too far down the road to be of any help for me.  Every little bit of progress in encouraging though!

    I do take exception to this part of the article though:

    At the moment, a patient may wait months, sometimes years, for an organ from a suitable donor.

    Only the very, very lucky are on a transplant list for a matter of mere months.  The vast majority of us wait and wait and wait.  Two years and counting in my case.

    Parent

    sorry to hear that (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:14:56 AM EST
    good luck

    Parent
    Thanks! (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:35:33 AM EST
    And I'll take this opportunity to nudge the citizens of TL to sign up to be an organ donor if they haven't already.

    It truly is the gift of life!!!

    Parent

    agreed (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:42:22 AM EST
    already there

    Parent
    ps (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:42:40 AM EST
    I think it should be done permission or not.

    Parent
    on the organ donor list, (none / 0) (#82)
    by jeffinalabama on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:05:29 PM EST
    but worried that they wouldn't use much. I'm a man of substance and girth, so that eliminates some organs, I think...

    Parent
    You might be surprised, Jeff. (none / 0) (#120)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:16:00 PM EST
    As they say, beggars can't be choosers.  That's for the Doc's to decide...

    Thanks for signing up!

    Parent

    I'm not just signed up as a donor, (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by Farmboy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:51:33 PM EST
    I also ride a motorcycle! ;-)

    Seriously though, good luck.

    Parent

    Or, as to some, they never achieve (none / 0) (#16)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:31:08 AM EST
    placement on a transplant list.  

    Parent
    Had a client who told me of his (none / 0) (#54)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:25:12 AM EST
    conversation with a D.C. taxi driver.  The latter was on liver transplant list in his area, but ended up getting liver transplant in FL much faster.  Reason?  FL does not have a m/c helmet law.

    Parent
    wow (none / 0) (#57)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:28:53 AM EST
    never thought that arkansas was a good place to get a transplant.

    Parent
    Fascinating. (none / 0) (#17)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:31:30 AM EST
    awsum (none / 0) (#11)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:12:45 AM EST
    "The Endless Night"
    A Valentine to Film Noir

    Advice needed: I want to hang (none / 0) (#29)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:49:31 AM EST
    a piece of driftwood on my living room wall and then hang on it a piece of pottery I got in Kyoto.  But, everyone is warning me about possible bug infestation in the driftwood, which I have hosed down and baked in the sun.  What next before I bring it into the house?  A friend suggested putting it in my oven at 250 degrees for a couple hours.  

    Here are some suggestions: (none / 0) (#33)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 10:54:38 AM EST
    Just make sure it's dry (none / 0) (#80)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:02:57 PM EST
    and don't worry about it.  I don't know what "harmful organisms" the people on the Gardenweb site are even talking about.  If it's not completely dry-- ie, if it was fished out of the water rather than having been sitting up on shore-- just leave it outside for a few weeks.  Lay it across a couple of other pieces of wood or whatever you've got to keep it off the ground.

    The stuff you'd want to worry about would be termites and carpenter ants, but they're only interested in wet and rotting wood.  If some of the piece is crumbling, scrape or break the crumbling bits off.

    I heat my home with wood and bring lots of it into the house with zero problems.  The odd spider or ant sometimes scuttles out of a piece and disappears in search of someplace more hospitable.  End of issue.

    Parent

    Thanks. I was about to buy bleach (none / 0) (#87)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:24:06 PM EST
    and a very long container.  My treasure is too big for my oven.

    Parent
    If you are really concerned (none / 0) (#98)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:47:07 PM EST
    hit it with some Raid...

    Parent
    I hadn't even thought my driftwood (none / 0) (#99)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:48:57 PM EST
    posed a potential menace until my friends started in with the cautionary advice and tales.

    Parent
    Picked up some driftwood from the beach (none / 0) (#85)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:13:03 PM EST
    north of Santa Barbara on Valentine's day and arranged several of them in an oh-so-very-hip display on the mantle in my living room.

    No bugs.

    The oven would work, just to make sure, I doubt any Cali bugs can live at temps higher than, say, 130F or so...

    Parent

    Put it (none / 0) (#90)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:29:12 PM EST
    in the microwave for a few minutes.  Kills pretty much everything by destroying cell walls.

    Parent
    This baby is 3 feet long and won't (none / 0) (#100)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 12:49:43 PM EST
    fit in either the microwave or the oven.  

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#161)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:03:17 PM EST
    then, just take your chances and keep an eye on it.  If you notice bugs, take it outside, else, enjoy it!

    Parent
    wow (none / 0) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:12:52 AM EST
    enquirer (none / 0) (#42)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 11:13:48 AM EST
    Mets up 1-0 kdog (none / 0) (#121)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:18:21 PM EST
    Bottom of he 5 th

    Oh thanks. Pads. first game (none / 0) (#129)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:26:56 PM EST
    is Thurs.

    Parent
    4-0 in the 6th! (none / 0) (#140)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:40:08 PM EST
    Awesome... (none / 0) (#160)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:02:51 PM EST
    hope you're enjoying the ballgame ruffian, eat some Crackerjacks for me... we had more snow this morning, but it quickly turned to rain.

    Maybe it will finally wash the snow off our football fields for the semis this Sunday...me and the fellas are still alive in both of our divisions...dare we dream of two 'chips in the Winter League to follow the one 'chip in the fall?  Yes, we dare!

    Parent

    So, about that deal with hospitals (none / 0) (#125)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 01:23:11 PM EST
    We've all heard about the deals with Big Pharma to continue the ban on negotiating lower drug prices for Medicare, and to forbid people from buying cheaper drugs overseas, but we haven't heard too much about the deal made with for-profit hospital lobby to limit the cost reductions in exchange for a WH promise of no public option. This deal was hammered out last summer, but strangely no one is talking about it.

    Several hospital lobbyists involved in the White House deals said it was understood as a condition of their support that the final legislation would not include a government-run health plan paying Medicare rates -- generally 80 percent of private sector rates -- or controlled by the secretary of health and human services.

    "We have an agreement with the White House that I'm very confident will be seen all the way through conference," one of the industry lobbyists, Chip Kahn, director of the Federation of American Hospitals, told a Capitol Hill newsletter.

    More change you can believe in - not.

    Transcript of Obama's remarks on HCR (none / 0) (#159)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:02:17 PM EST
    Link

    The proposal I've put forward gives Americans more control over their health care by holding insurance companies more accountable. It builds on the current system where most Americans get their health insurance from their employer. If you like your plan, you can keep your plan. If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. Because I can tell you that as the father of two young girls, I wouldn't want any plan that interferes with the relationship between a family and their doctor.

    Essentially, my proposal would change three things about the current health care system:

    First, it would end the worst practices of insurance companies. No longer would they be able to deny your coverage because of a pre-existing condition. No longer would they be able to drop your coverage because you got sick. No longer would they be able to force you to pay unlimited amounts of money out of your own pocket. No longer would they be able to arbitrarily and massively raise premiums like Anthem Blue Cross recently tried to do in California. Those practices would end.

    Second, my proposal would give uninsured individuals and small business owners the same kind of choice of private health insurance that Members of Congress get for themselves. Because if it's good enough for Members of Congress, it's good enough for the people who pay their salaries. The reason federal employees get a good deal on health insurance is that we all participate in an insurance marketplace where insurance companies give better rates and coverage because we give them more customers. This is an idea that many Republicans have embraced in the past. And my proposal says that if you still can't afford the insurance in this new marketplace, we will offer you tax credits to do so tax credits that add up to the largest middle class tax cut for health care in history. After all, the wealthiest among us can already buy the best insurance there is, and the least well-off are able to get coverage through Medicaid. But it's the middle-class that gets squeezed, and that's who we have to help.

    Now, it's true that all of this will cost money about $100 billion per year. But most of this comes from the nearly $2 trillion a year that America already spends on health care. It's just that right now, a lot of that money is being wasted or spent badly. With this plan, we're going to make sure the dollars we spend go toward making insurance more affordable and more secure. We're also going to eliminate wasteful taxpayer subsidies that currently go to insurance and pharmaceutical companies, set a new fee on insurance companies that stand to gain as millions of Americans are able to buy insurance, and make sure the wealthiest Americans pay their fair share of Medicare.

    The bottom line is, our proposal is paid for. And all new money generated in this plan would go back to small businesses and middle-class families who can't afford health insurance. It would lower prescription drug prices for seniors. And it would help train new doctors and nurses to provide care for American families.

    Finally, my proposal would bring down the cost of health care for millions families, businesses, and the federal government. We have now incorporated most of the serious ideas from across the political spectrum about how to contain the rising cost of health care ideas that go after the waste and abuse in our system, especially in programs like Medicare. But we do this while protecting Medicare benefits, and extending the financial stability of the program by nearly a decade.

    Our cost-cutting measures mirror most of the proposals in the current Senate bill, which reduces most people's premiums and brings down our deficit by up to $1 trillion over the next two decades. And those aren't my numbers they are the savings determined by the CBO, which is the Washington acronym for the nonpartisan, independent referee of Congress.

    So this is our proposal. This is where we've ended up. It's an approach that has been debated and changed and I believe improved over the last year. It incorporates the best ideas from Democrats and Republicans including some of the ideas that Republicans offered during the health care summit, like funding state grants on medical malpractice reform and curbing waste, fraud, and abuse in the health care system. My proposal also gets rid of many of the provisions that had no place in health care reform provisions that were more about winning individual votes in Congress than improving health care for all Americans.

    Hopefully, he's right and this isn't just "more words".

    It's (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:06:17 PM EST
    the senate plan, wrapped in pretty words.  For instance:

    set a new fee on insurance companies that stand to gain as millions of Americans are able to buy insurance

    = excise tax.

    Parent

    Still some issues with votes (none / 0) (#173)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:17:07 PM EST
    For example, Rep. Brian Baird (D-WA) still not sold on HCR.

    Baird, a clinical psychologist first elected in 1998, has young twin sons, and told Pacific Northwest reporters in December the grind of lawmaking was wearing on him. You might think the fact that he's retiring would free him from political concerns about the healthcare bill. Still, even though he won't have to face voters again, Baird has substantive and political worries about what leadership is asking members to do.

    "The House bill was less bad than the status quo, but that doesn't make it good in my mind," he said. By building on the existing structures of various Medicare programs, Medicaid, S-CHIP and other state health programs, the reform bill maintains what Baird sees as inefficiencies that should be fixed. And while he's all for banning insurance companies from denying coverage for pre-existing conditions and some of the bill's other provisions, he's concerned about how to explain it to voters.

    "We had a series of briefings in the Democratic caucus," he said. "At the final briefing before the vote, there were -- I would guess -- 30 staffers, most of them master's or Ph.D's, many of whom spent their entire life on healthcare; experts in the arcanery of this bill, and they would stand up one by one and answer questions as they arose from the caucus... You have to say, so what's the average person supposed to do to make sense of this if it takes 30 Ph.D career staff members to explain it? And that's after months of prior explanation."

    The process Democrats have been left with to finish the bill also concerns him. Because Republicans will filibuster any new Senate bill, the House will have to pass the Senate's version, then use reconciliation to combine them.

    "We're going to be asked, 'Okay, up or down,' on a Senate bill, under reconciliation rules which we don't know will the Senate vote for it, will it be included under reconciliation," he said. "So they're going to say, 'Okay, vote for this bill, because it would do X,' but under reconciliation, X may not make it past the parliamentarian's gate... We're not sure what's in it [and] we don't know whether it'll pass the Senate anyway."



    Is Nancy conceding the abortion issue? (none / 0) (#187)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:28:33 PM EST
    Could be....

    Meanwhile, Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) made a major concession, signaling Tuesday that she may be ready to accept the Senate's language on two issues that have divided her Caucus -- immigration and abortion -- in the name of getting an overhaul passed. Neither issue can be addressed under a reconciliation bill because stringent rules governing such bills require provisions to have a direct budgetary impact.

    "This is not an immigration bill. It is not an abortion bill. It is a bill about affordable health care for all Americans," she said.

    However, leaders in both chambers are still negotiating what would be included in a reconciliation package and cannot secure the votes for any deal until they reach an agreement. Democratic leaders were mum Tuesday when they emerged from a bicameral leadership meeting with White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel and health care adviser Nancy-Ann DeParle.

    "It was a very good discussion," Emanuel said afterward. "We worked through a number of issues as it relates to the legislation."

    Pelosi said she remains focused on finalizing the substance of a bill and figuring out what the Senate can pass. From there, House Democratic leaders "will take that substance ... to our Members," she said.



    Senate Dems would not (none / 0) (#193)
    by dk on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:34:42 PM EST
    have passed the Nelson amendment in the first place had it not been pre-cleared with Nancy.

    Parent
    Please vote up single payer at change.org (none / 0) (#192)
    by lambert on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:34:08 PM EST