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    THE EARLY DAZE, part 5 (5.00 / 0) (#2)
    by Dadler on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:55:38 PM EST
    Nice... (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:30:18 PM EST
    quality reading over some b-rips later...I'm sure it's another gas.

    Parent
    Enjoy, my man (none / 0) (#22)
    by Dadler on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:36:40 PM EST
    Hope it holds up.  Part 6 very soon.

    Parent
    Well, I guess another thread will be trashed. (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:42:21 PM EST
    Nice. Bye bye for today. Maybe tomorrow will be better.

    Don't forget the 1st rule... (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:53:07 PM EST
    of internet conversation/debate Doc...don't take anybody, or yourself, too seriously.

    I mean wtf does anybody know, ya know?

    Parent

    nah, some people insist on (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:55:42 PM EST
    revisiting the primaries, and they want to paint this place Orange in honor of their leader.
    No dissent will be unmet with a humorless, chiding response.

    Parent
    ah (1.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:58:00 PM EST
    poor poor little echo chamber


    Parent
    What is wrong with you? You haven't (5.00 / 4) (#41)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:04:55 PM EST
    made  a reasonable comment in days, and you've been picking fights with everyone, accusing anyone who doesn't agree with you of being a PUMA or whatever.
    If you have something to say, then I"m sure it can be said without adding giving a finger to imaginary wild animals too.

    Parent
    I said it before (2.33 / 3) (#52)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:13:47 PM EST
    I am sick of seeing republicans enabled under the thin veneer of progressivism.

    if Jeralyn wants to ban me for that I can live with it.   but I dont think she wants a puma echo chamber either.

    Parent

    Here we go again (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:47:34 PM EST
    Most of the PUMAs I know are liberal, not Republican.

    If you are going to talk about them at least take the time to know what you are talking about.

    Or are you going to now suggest that single payer is a conservative ideal(which is what most of the PUMAs I know support for HCR).

    Obama is fighting a two front war on health care. It's a darn shame he's choosing to woo the GOP rather than scoot a little further left and throw out a feasible public option to control costs.

    Parent

    Someone who admits ... (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:10:53 PM EST
    ... they almost voted for McCain is "sick of seeing republicans enabled under the thin veneer of progressivism"?

    How's that work?

    Parent

    The Republicans got fanatical (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:13:20 PM EST
    ex-marxists/now neocons; we get lectured by ex-Republicans like Kos about how to be real Democrats.

    Parent
    We're just goin for broke now (none / 0) (#137)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:15:13 PM EST
    around here :)  Yeehaw, ridem cowboys and cowgirls.

    Parent
    its called (none / 0) (#143)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:18:32 PM EST
    credibility.

    Parent
    Again Capt Howdy (5.00 / 2) (#159)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:28:43 PM EST
    I'm a PUMA. Would you call the arguments I've made, not credible?

    I think part of the problem is you are using a broad brush to paint a wide swath of people.

    Just as Obama had people that supported him in different increments(some were thrilled, others apprehensive)there are people who are PUMAs that are going to have varying levels of credibility. It's better to focus on the argument the person makes for that reason.

    Parent

    you know what (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:39:50 PM EST
    I agree with you.  and honestly I would not, as far as I have seen anyway, include you in the criticisms I have vented.  you do seem like a more reasonable from of puma.  

    and being so I suspect you know what I am talking about.

    Parent

    I'm sick of that too, which is why I can't (none / 0) (#61)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:20:54 PM EST
    stand Obama. We OUGHT to have a lot in common, if you really are a Progressive.

    Parent
    and dont (none / 0) (#36)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:58:31 PM EST
    count on it

    Parent
    Response to MKS from (5.00 / 11) (#28)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:49:36 PM EST
    earleir thread - comments closed before I could post:

    There were any number of people I stopped reading and sites I stopped visiting and talking head shows I stopped watching, and that probably started in mid-2007; the newly-Democratic majority Congress was doing nothing about Bush/Cheney, and the blather on the Sunday shows began to be unbearable.

    The primary season started with me being an Edwards supporter; it soon became clear that no one in the media was really going to give him the time of day, and he wasn't going to last long.  Around that time, the Hillary hate was really cranking up - on the blogs, on MSNBC, on the Sunday shows.  It was so bad that I started to dig deeper to see if I could defend her from the blatant and unrelenting misogyny and, in the process, began to think she was the better candidate - especially after I began to dig a little deeper on Obama's record.

    As bad as that was - and JMM and Markos and Maddow and Olbermann were certainly a part of that - what was worse was how the party leaders manipulated the system, disenfranchised voters, and stole - yes, stole - delegates; that was something we ALL should have been horrified over, that the media should have exposed as a wrong, and it was that failure to see beyond the partisan candidate preferences to the damage this was doing to the integrity of the system that put me off some of these people, pretty much for good.

    The reason there is so much criticism of Rachel Maddow in this thread is because Capt. Howdy decided to put her on a pedestal and crown her a hero for calling Republicans liars - three of four times! - and ignored the fact that she closed her eyes to some of the worst actions taken by a political party in my memory, and she did it because it was working in her preferred candidate's favor; I don't find that heroic AT ALL.  Can you even imagine the outrage if these things had been perpetrated by the Republican party?  I mean, I understand wanting to root for one's own team, but isn't there something more heroic about putting one's country and the integrity of the election process before party?  There's a reason why the Democratic party is splintering and fracturing, and it isn't because of Republicans - or PUMAs.

    Sorry for the "essay" answer, but I'm tired of this always coming down to, "but what about what all these other people did or didn't do - this must just be about Hillary and you must be one of those awful PUMAs."  There's a much bigger picture that cannot be reduced to "PUMA" and "pro-Obama," and if people aren't willing to consider that, I guess I am wasting my time attempting to explain it.


    Closed her eyes to.. (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:14:18 PM EST
    She certainly did. And Im so reminded of how most folks here have chosen to close their eyes to Hillary's Iraq vote and record of provocative sabre rattling, pre-election loading up on corporate-healthcare industry contributions (as if it had been donated for no reason) etc

    There's been more than enough turning-a-blind-eye to go around in a lot of quarters, Ann.

    Parent

    jesus (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:17:04 PM EST
    could we move on
    at some point.

    will it take another presidential election for theses people to get the hell over it?


    Parent

    Well, you could stick to the topic (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:19:52 PM EST
    instead of repeatedly inviting a discussion of the primaries.

    Parent
    Actually (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:22:02 PM EST
    there's a lot of deeper issues IMO with regards to all this. There is a very deep fissure in the party that Obama never dealt with that's why I dont think that he can count on people "coming home" in the end. We've already seen evidence of this problem in VA, NJ and MA and probably more will be seen in Nov.

    Both parties are in pretty bad shape right now. Teh only thing that the D's seem to ahve going is that "tehy aren't as bad as the GOP". Wow, golly gee, isnt that great? Well, that gets you some votes but it's never enough to win.

    There is a majority to be made but who will do it I dont know. Right now the middle class has no representation so whichever party can harness that can win a lot of elections.

    Parent

    Just say "teabaggers" a few more (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:27:01 PM EST
    times and the Republicans will be in better shape.
    The absolute moranity of people who think that insulting private citizens en masse will win votes is truly.. well, it's truly typical of Democratic leadership.
    It reminds me of when millions of Democrats were called racist, and then expected to vote Democratic in the fall.


    Parent
    The problem is (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:01:15 PM EST
    they are operating under the faulty premise that they'll win as they did when they called people "racist" back in the day.

    Parent
    but (none / 0) (#148)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:19:27 PM EST
    they won

    Parent
    f people are casting (none / 0) (#90)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:41:43 PM EST
    what could theoretically be the most important votes in their lives based on who personally offends them the least, this country is already in deep, deep trouble.

    Jesus, dont make anyone mad..watch everything you say..no one understands the issues anyway.

    Where's Robert Schuller or Dr Phil when we need them? Those two would be perfect candidates.

    Parent

    indies (none / 0) (#71)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:29:34 PM EST
    watch out for indies in 2010 and 2012

    Parent
    A man can dream of that.... (none / 0) (#93)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:43:55 PM EST
    at least we might get a few years of sincere attempts at problem-solving out of the indies, before the machine remolds them like they have seemingly everybody with a D or an R after their freakin' name.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#103)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:50:28 PM EST
    I wouldnt be surprised to see a Bloomberg run for President and cost someone a ton of votes.

    Parent
    Gee, Obama never threatened to bomb (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:19:05 PM EST
    Iran preemptively---no wait, he did!
    Obama never threatened to go to war with Pakistan, if necessary---no wait, he did!
    Obama never praised the success of the surge, early and often---hmmm, notso sure about that one, but I know he praised it!

    Obama was by a slight margin the most hawkish of the candidates. He was also, by a large margin, the candidate most willing to distort his opponent's positions for political gain.
    Let's not forget that Susan whatshername accused Hillary of being ready to nuke Pakistan!
    PUHLEEZE.
    Why revisit the primaries though? I'm excited about  the elections in November. Aren't you?
    I can hear the sizzle and smell the fried flesh already!

    Parent

    The point is (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:35:54 PM EST
    you call Obama on EVERYTHING and give Mrs Clinton a pass on EVERTHING..which begs the question whether this about holding all our leaders feet to the fire or just about some kind of venting-therapy session with previously agreed upon rules of engagement.

    Parent
    An angel crashes into a building (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:37:26 PM EST
    everytime some poor benighed person forgets who is President, and blames someone else for the sorry state of the Democratic Party.

    Parent
    The Democratic Party... (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:50:55 PM EST
    has been sorry since long before Barack or Hlllary became household names...that's the point.  The Republican Party 5-10% sorrier.

    It's bigger than any one person, one snakeoil politician...we have fudamental systematic flaws and failings that fester further while we argue cult of personality bullsh*t.

    Parent

    Now that I can agree with (none / 0) (#161)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:34:37 PM EST
    discussing why it's Obama's fault, or Congress' fault, or so forth, takes away the fact that there are much, much bigger problems...lobbyist influence, corporate money, media, etc.  I know we do not exactly have the same views but you are absolutely right kdog.

    Parent
    It's a daunting prospect... (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:49:38 PM EST
    to ponder burro...I can understand why we'd like to believe "if we only had elected x instead of y everything would be ok"...but thats just living in fantasyland.

    Parent
    Again (5.00 / 8) (#94)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:44:27 PM EST
    Who is the president?  who asked for the job, got it, and now is not performing it well?

    Crickets....

    Parent

    as a matter of fact (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:48:25 PM EST
    I think Obama is doing a passable job.  if you think Hillary would have been more effective you are dreaming.  he inherited absolute hell and he made some hard decisions.  but he is doing an entirely passable job.

    Parent
    You know, it's possible for reasonable (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:52:11 PM EST
    people to disagree on this point, which is something you seem incapable of understanding.
    Even BTD, who was an Obama supporter, finds him absolutely hopeless. Is your only response that BTD must be a PUMA?

    Parent
    BTD talks about policy (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:55:45 PM EST
    and he does it very well.  he, IMO, does exactly what someone in his position should do.  he keeps his feet to the fire.  he offers constructive criticism.  that is not what goes on in the threads.


    Parent
    I don't think (none / 0) (#112)
    by CST on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:56:24 PM EST
    I've ever seen BTD write "Obama is absolutely hopeless".

    I'm pretty sure BTD thinks of Obama as a pol just like any other.  It's a matter of trying to push him one way or the other, so the posts are critical in terms of where he would like Obama to go.

    I have no doubt those posts would be similar had Obama lost.  Unlike say, many of the other posters at this blog.

    There is a difference between being critical of certain positions, and finding someone completely hopeless.

    Parent

    You haven't been paying attention (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:09:26 PM EST
    He may have said "pathetic", but he was emphatic. I"m sure someone here can find the comment.

    Parent
    Wow (5.00 / 4) (#109)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:53:47 PM EST
    if you dont think anyone could be more effective than someone who is so completely ineffective? That says a lot on the sorry state fo the party. I can think of several people who I think woudl be more effective than Obama. Obama's problem is largely a character flaw in his inability to lead. He jsut doesnt have those traits. It's mutliplied into a larger problem when you have some of the leadership issues in the house and senate.

    Parent
    Wow ... (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:18:32 PM EST
    Pretty funny when even the staunchest supporters are are reduced to saying he's done an "entirely passable job".  Hey, ..... would that fit on a campaign sign?

    Somehow I don't think "Change" is gonna work in 2012.

    Parent

    if you think I am his (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:22:35 PM EST
    "staunches supporter", man, I dont really know how to finish that . . . .

    Parent
    Hey, you get ... (5.00 / 3) (#177)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:09:14 PM EST
    ... to characterize a whole lotta people as "PUMAs" (in a pejorative sense), right?  "Staunch supporter" seems pretty mild by comparison.  Besides, ...

    ... turnabout is fair play.

    Parent

    JB, Obama's President, but he's (none / 0) (#97)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:47:33 PM EST
    not the leader. Not only is he powerless, but his personal style is to facilitate compromise between opposing sides by allowing them to openly and freely express their disagreements.
    Harmony and constructive engagement is always sure to follow such airings, didn't you know?
    Obama's really a master farmer, tilling the fields.. but the growth is something we all do on our own.

    Parent
    Would you repeat the question? (none / 0) (#123)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:05:34 PM EST
    Who is the president? (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:06:41 PM EST
    That's all that matters - the person in charge.  If they can't hack it, well, they need to find another career.

    LEAAAVVEEE BARACK ALLLLOOOOONNNNNEEEEE!

    Parent

    I've never given her such a pass (5.00 / 7) (#102)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:49:47 PM EST
    I do take the speech she delivered with her AUMF vote that day into deep consideration.  Did she think that there were WMDs?  I think it more likely listening to that speech that she did not.  It was a time in our history though that you were taking a huge gamble, and that jerk F-wad Cheney finding any substantial long forgotten stash someplace buried in the Iraq desert amounted to political suicide because we were going one way or another.  It isn't as if he didn't have whole platoons out there looking for one single solitary item that would have covered his arse too, because he did.  America's notion that it was time to come clean on Iraq and WMD's did not happen until Cindy Sheehan and the destruction of virtually a whole Marine Company ripened and converged.  Obama says he would have never voted for the AUMF, but he's a damned liar on that one.  Take a look at his FISA vote...every vote he ever made to include "present", he is as cautious as they come and no cautious Senator was not going to vote for the AUMF.

    Parent
    Amen, sister. (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:19:17 PM EST
    "Mrs." Clinton? (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by sj on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:16:44 PM EST
    Just a housewife, she.

    Geez.  I don't call him Mr. McCain, or Mrs. Palin, or Mr. O'Connor just because I don't respect them.

    It's Senator McCain, Governor Palin and Archbishop O'Connor.

    At least give the office the respect it deserves if you're going to use an honorific at all.

    I wouldn't have blinked at a plain old "Clinton" just as I didn't blink to your reference to "Obama" but your use of "Mrs." for such an accomplished individual feels rather calculated and --- oily.  Out here.  On the internets.

    Parent

    NYT style manual. No, I don't like (none / 0) (#150)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:20:07 PM EST
    ot either.  

    Parent
    Anne (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:20:44 PM EST
    I enjoy your essays. So keep writing em'. Most issues are more complex then a mere two to three words.

    Frankly, I don't think you are going to convince anyone though to relook at the evidence from another perspective at this point though. I don't think that some are ready to be at the point to recognize this isn't about personality, it's about core principles(just as it was during the primary).

    As for Rachel, she's human and fallible, just like the rest of us. I'm not excusing what she did during the primaries but I don't think she's inherently bad or any more or less objective than the other media personalities(and some bloggers) out there. I, myself don't watch her(not because I hate her) because I tend to dislike the way media TV reducing things to 30 second sound bites. I'd rather get in depth and TV rarely does that in a meaningful way. Usually when the media does go "in depth" it's over something silly like the death of Brittney Murphy or some sort of celebrity blather.

    Parent

    To Anne (none / 0) (#166)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:48:35 PM EST
    I don't put Maddow on a pedestal--and I don't think Captain Howdy does either.  Maddow's humor is not her best asset, and I tend to skip the end of the show when she indulges on that score....

    I viewed the statement about Maddow being a "hero" figuratively--an enthusiastic overstatement that was meant to express satisfaction in seeing someone state a progressive case sharply.  One would think all liberals/progressives would be fine with that sentiment.  But, no, the score-keepers jump in--even though most of them bend over backwards to show the rest of us dolts that they do not condescend to watch her regularly....but still judge her show as unprofessional--and recent shows at that, the ones that they have not seen that form the basis of what everyone is talking about. So, a casual statement about Maddow being a "hero" justifies a round of tut-tutting of how one should avoid hero worship, accompanied by all manner of condescending lectures about being duped etc.  What on earth triggerd such a response to a simple statement of enthusiasm?

    I do agree with Dr. Molly that the prior thread went sideways when the term "PUMA" was used.  I guess it is now viewed as a derogatory--or at least inflammatory--term....It started out as an exercise in self-description.  I do think that the best way to predict how one comes out on various issues here is to look at whom one supported in the primary.  There are so many proxy fights that occur in that context.  It is quite predictable how that works....But clearly using the term "PUMA" is just pouring fuel on the fire....

    Parent

    Something tells me Mom isn't (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:04:30 PM EST
    going to be happy when she returns and sees this mess.

    I think mom (none / 0) (#44)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:06:53 PM EST
    dislikes the pumas as much as I do.  but I could be wrong.


    Parent
    She doesn't like people (5.00 / 3) (#46)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:08:29 PM EST
    picking fights and cluttering the threads with personal attacks. Have you seen DA recently?

    Parent
    oh please (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:11:56 PM EST
    you clearly enjoy interacting with them.  watching comment after comment of puma defenses, attacks, and insults is just not that interesting to me.  

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:18:56 PM EST
    they posted a notice at one point near the end of the primaries about this not being a puma site, but as I've said before, that was like putting up a no smoking sign 2/3 of the way through a Phish concert.

    Parent
    and I left the site before that point (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:57:43 PM EST
    I actually think it's rather funny because I am a PUMA(I've made no attempts to hide the fact that I am no longer a Democrat) and alot of what I see being portrayed as PUMA by Capt Howdy is disturbingly inaccurate.

    I don't hate Maddow or Obama. I disagree with them. There is a difference.

    Furthermore, I was respectful enough in the primaries to recognize Jeralyn had a right to her opinion and not want to muck up her threads. I'd do the same if she asked me to leave because I am a PUMA. However, I got the impression that the site was open to diverse opinions. On more than one occasion Jeralyn asked people for their opinions.  I was under the assumption that the question was genuine and she wanted a viewpoint expressed that was not her own. Same thing with BTD.

    Parent

    I think you are correct (none / 0) (#118)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:00:30 PM EST
    and one thing it absolutely has not been is diverse.

    Parent
    I disagree, look at health care for example (none / 0) (#132)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:12:01 PM EST
    There are people here who wish to see anything passed up to and including something that may not go far enough(something is better than nothing). There are people here that post that support single payer. There are people here that will not support something without some sort of public mechanism to control costs which was one of the initial purposes of visiting health care reform but do not go as far as insisting the whole shebang needs to be government run(at least not at this point).

    That's a pretty diverse group of opinions.

    The problem on an issue like health care is two front. Obama is running into PUMA like opposition from those on the left who want him to create or expand a government run program and those on the right who frankly don't like government run anything, they'd just as soon privatize everything and god forbid it actually cost money if it ain't defense. Then the right really gets the vapors.

    Parent

    And the O-movement is diverse in (none / 0) (#174)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:05:34 PM EST
    it's opinions? LOL----it's "Whatever helps cover Obama's a** best"

    Parent
    I think you should educate those (none / 0) (#121)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:01:24 PM EST
    Who obviously are mistaken about what PUMA's are.  Maybe then it will show how silly the argument has become around here.

    Parent
    The PUMA movement (4.50 / 6) (#165)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:40:47 PM EST
    was pretty diverse and I don't think rehashing the primaries would be overly productive.

    Most PUMAs, like myself though, are pretty reasonable people.

    I try really hard not to judge too harshly those that voted for Obama and like to believe they did what they felt was in the best interest of the country(even if I disagreed). It's a darn shame that the courtesy can't be extended in the same direction. I have no way of knowing what would have happened if things had been different.....instead I prefer to just keep truckin' forward and work on issues.

    Parent

    You don't get to decide and neither (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:20:53 PM EST
    do any of the rest of us mere commenters.

    Parent
    Blind hate? (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:22:39 PM EST
    I think you're taking a little political liscence there and exxagerating. Disliking someone's political philosophy or disagreeing with their policy is not the equivalent of blind hate.

    disagreement=hate? (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by nycstray on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:27:04 PM EST


    please (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:30:49 PM EST
    lets be honest

    Parent
    Yes, let's be honest. You have been (5.00 / 5) (#77)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:33:57 PM EST
    picking fights nonstop for several weeks now.

    Parent
    picking a fight (3.50 / 2) (#83)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:37:56 PM EST
    is defined as praising or in any not trashing Obama.

    got it.


    Parent

    I know.. doesn't he know that (3.66 / 3) (#75)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:31:54 PM EST
    disagreement=racism??
    He REALLY needs to spend more time at Big Orange.
    He's rusty.

    Parent
    i assumed "hate" to mean... (none / 0) (#84)
    by Raskolnikov on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:38:37 PM EST
    ... persistent irrational disagreement with everything Obama does, regardless of merit.  I'm with many here that don't want this place to turn into a pro-Obama cheerleading site, but thats not in any real danger of happening.  What's equally annoying and not at all useful is for this place to devolve to an anti-Obama cheerleading site.  Both sides are just yelling at each other, saying the same things they have been for a while with pre-determined responses, and its repetitive and inane.

    Parent
    I prefer Saucony sneakers to Pumas or Nikes (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by tworivers on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:31:02 PM EST
    Converse sneakers are good too, but I prefer a bit more arch support these days.

    Just my two cents

    And a Fatwa has been issued that (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:05:13 PM EST
    suicide bombers go to hell.  I do get some things that I like.  I think this is a very important Fatwa.

    CNN (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:39:02 PM EST
    "This is a landmark theological study -- a careful and systematic treatment of a thousand years of legal tradition dealing with armed resistance against the state, rules of engagement, aspects. The fatwa itself ... is categorically and comprehensively against terrorism in any form and for any cause," Ahmed said.

    [link]

    Very very interesting.  Sounds good to me...

    Parent

    My court hearing (5.00 / 4) (#145)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:18:42 PM EST
    was much more peaceful than these Open threads have been.

    Cut the crap everyone.

    Well said (none / 0) (#184)
    by dead dancer on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:25:44 PM EST
    and we seem to have the means to make you "cut the crap"; Othello, here boy.

    Good luck MT, Othello

    Parent

    Obama is like Bush? (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:08:08 PM EST
    Hiding data (David Sirota over at Openleft)

    Just a quick pen swipe and 'poof' no more data to rile up the serfs.

    For a laugh after all this fragging is done with: (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by steviez314 on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:51:27 PM EST
    Sen Ashburn arrested (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by waldenpond on Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 11:03:01 AM EST
    It is so inappropriate to laugh at this but I can't help myself.  

    Sen Roy Ashburn arrested.

    [I am deeply sorry for my actions and offer no excuse for my poor judgment.]

    To MKS; "We" (whoever you mean (4.00 / 4) (#1)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:52:28 PM EST
    by that) judge people by their record.
    You deliberately conflate the question of whether someone supported Obama with the issue of whether the person reported honestly. When I specifically said the latter was the issue, you turn that into admission of the former.
    Quite dishonest on  your part.


    Addendum: note that the most (5.00 / 6) (#3)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:57:14 PM EST
    prominent bloggers today are the ones who were decisively wrong about Iraq, as well. These are the people who supported Obama, and who are gung-ho for the Senate HCR bill too.
    Next year they will tell us that it's time to cut SS benefits and institute means testing---just watch.

    Parent
    That's what I find most amusing (5.00 / 7) (#6)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:09:16 PM EST
    Over and over again people in the Village seem to insist that the people opposed to things are "uneducated" on the issue. Time and time again though those of us who are "uneducated" appear to have had explored the issues such as Iraq, Obama, the stimulus, or even health care with at least as much, if not more depth, than they did. Yet time and time again I keep hearing the "you just don't understand it as well as we do" argument trotted out.

    Parent
    Maybe "uneducated"... (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:12:59 PM EST
    is code for "unconnected", "unimportant", "went to community college", or simply "dirty unwashed masses".

    Parent
    What I do know is... (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:29:24 PM EST
    we let these cats we call the village run this joint into the ground in a generation or two...it's well past time to give the dummies with ten times the common sense a shot...as  noted above we've had a better accuracy rate lately.

    Parent
    that is such a hilarious (1.67 / 6) (#21)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:36:27 PM EST
    puma comment.  pure pump poop.  and of course it got a "5"

    Parent
    Instead of hurling insults (5.00 / 8) (#23)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:41:23 PM EST
    how about providing an argument?

    I think I left that short and concise enough for you.

    Parent

    When he has to bring puma (5.00 / 4) (#38)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:00:05 PM EST
    into the argument, he knows he's lost, and then it's just pure button-pushing; he must be bored - it'll be hours before Rachel comes on...

    Parent
    unfortunately puma (none / 0) (#39)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:04:10 PM EST
    lives in the argument.  I had nothing to do with it.

    Parent
    There are two sides to (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:35:11 PM EST
    an arguement. PUMA isn't on both sides. You might want to look in the mirror and consider that YOU are the opposing side of the PUMA arguement. Furthermore, you might want to consider doing more than insisting that a person who disagrees with you has a poop argument and is unreasonable. It doesn't make for a very compelling(or reasonable) discussion.

    Parent
    But Obama did, and so do the (3.67 / 3) (#45)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:07:11 PM EST
    Democratic leaders who hand-picked this empty suit to be President, and who refused to follow their own rules for choosing candidates, and who allowed cheating in caucuses to determine the candidate.
    Sour refrain? Don't blame me.
    You seem to want to relive the primaries.
    Others don't---they're just disgusted with the result.


    Parent
    tell me somthing I dont know (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:11:14 PM EST
    and trust me the last thing I want is to relive the primaries.

    Parent
    I stand corrected---you DO have (none / 0) (#54)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:14:56 PM EST
    a sense of humor. No taste in films though.

    Parent
    arguments (3.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:56:02 PM EST
    yeah, like that would work

    Parent
    Try it (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:30:23 PM EST
    I can't promise I'll agree with you but I do promise I'll do better then insist on calling your argument poop because I disagree with it.

    Parent
    Specialized knowledge doesn't (none / 0) (#10)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:13:23 PM EST
    translate well. For instance, JMM has a Ph.D in early American history. I'm sure he's good at that. Why does that mean his opinion about the Iraq war was worth considering?
    Even worse, IMO, is the general level of innumeracy among journalists.

    Parent
    Funny (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:55:10 PM EST
    how the bloggers who were wrong about Iraq are supposed to be held up for scrutiny, while some prominent leaders - who had the actual power and influence to make a difference in how the vote went, and who didnt support Obama - have been getting a complete pass for it here for two years or longer.

    Funny, and not funny.

    Parent

    that is funny (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:59:08 PM EST
    isnt it?

    Parent
    Oh right. Let's not forget Obama's (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:10:21 PM EST
    war funding vote. Or
    were you alluding to him getting political credit for a speech he made, which no one at the time heard or noticed, which vaulted him halfway to the White House?

    Parent
    Right Obama (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:26:12 PM EST
    the only one whose actions ever matter or mattered. Forget about democracy and checks and balances..what we need is a strong "leader" (singular)

    And that Waterford Crystal ceiling not being shattered was so much more relevant than a hundred thousand brown people turned to grease spots thousands of miles away anyway.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 4) (#69)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:29:05 PM EST
    As he won an election and he's in charge, then yes, his actions are the only ones that matter.  He wanted the job, he said he could do it, so the fact that he seems to not be wowing his fans anymore is important.  I don't care about McCain or Palin or Hillary - they don't have the job, which makes this whole discussion of being accused of reliving the primaries absolutely ludicrous.

    If Obama (or his supporters) can't stand the criticism, then he needs to find another line of work and his supporters need to read blogs on gardening.

    Parent

    He should get it (none / 0) (#96)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:47:20 PM EST
    but what you're - knowingly or unknowingly - doing by focusing solely on Obama, is perpetuating the lie-of-omission that says there's nothing fundamentally wrong with an electoral system that wont let anyone who seriously threatens the status quo past the first hurdle.

    Parent
    Hillary threatened the status quo, (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:48:55 PM EST
    which is why Obama was Teh Chosen One.
    Reid et. al. did NOT want a powerful President.
    They got what they wanted, that's for sure!

    Parent
    please (5.00 / 4) (#106)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:52:54 PM EST
    Hillary was my candidate too but she hardly "threatened the status quo".  


    Parent
    She threatened the power of (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:16:35 PM EST
    House and Senate leadership.. DUH!!!


    Parent
    Threatened it how (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:57:05 PM EST
    by showing up Rick Santorum by taking slightly less money from the Healthcare Lobby than he did?

    Personally, I dont believe in "The One's", in this life or the next..only Ones that include everyone.


    Parent

    Baloney (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:22:50 PM EST
    Nice myth.....

    Parent
    Please. Obama was chosen because (3.50 / 2) (#173)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:04:14 PM EST
    Hillary threatened to overshadow the Dem leadership. This was reported at the time; since then, what was only rumor then---that Reid and other Democratic leaders pushed Obama to run back in 2006 to stop Hillary---has been confirmed in other reporting.
    You think that Reid was worried about Hillary's AUMF vote???? Only one reason to choose Obama: to hold onto power.
    Now, if only Congress would weild their power, I might not mind the arrangement. Obama is quite qualified to be a genial figurehead.

    Parent
    There is no evidence of that (5.00 / 2) (#186)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:41:27 PM EST
    This is just wishful, revisionist speculation.....Anachronistic speculation at that, removed in time from the actual events....Just opinion without any facts at all....That is some journalism.....

    Perhaps Reid and the other Senmate Democrats just preferred Obama to Hillary because they thought he would be better?  Not even possible in your universe, is it?  But show me the evidence that says Obama supporters in the Senate wanted Obama because he would be easier to control....Gawd, you really think the Senate Democrats are that effective as Machiavellians?  One could only wish....

    And, I thought the consensus was they were weak and disorganized--but they were powerful enough to ruin Hillary's chances--her own inept campaign and Mark Penn having nothing to do with it--for the sole reason of having a figurehead as president that they could manipulate at will?  You really think the Senate Democrats are that smart, effective and powerful??....Grassy knolls everywhere....

    Parent

    Take a logic course, buddy. (none / 0) (#190)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:50:43 PM EST
    Mark Penn had no relevance to what happened in 2006, when Obama was privately encouraged to run by the Senate leadership.
    Actually, there's a parallel with Bush, who clearly was seen by Republican old hands as someone who could be controlled. That didn't work out quite as they planned, though! W. was no Reagan.

    Democrats aren't weak and disorganized, except when it comes to passing legislation, which is the last thing they care about, any more.

    Parent

    Some myths are nice (none / 0) (#163)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:39:33 PM EST
    Moore, not exactly a Hillary hater, showed the chart of who got what in Sicko, I assume he does some fact checking with things like that..but if it is indeed a "myth" it wasnt intentional.

    Parent
    "Not exactly a Hillary hater"? (5.00 / 3) (#168)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:50:59 PM EST
    Moore?  On what planet?!?  Moore suggested she was a racist and a "bigot stocking the fires of stupidity".

    BTW - I don't know whether it's a "myth" or not, but did you ever notice how most of the CDS myths are, in fact, "unintentional".

    "Oops".

    Parent

    If you are going down that road (5.00 / 5) (#108)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:53:28 PM EST
    and want us to focus on other candidates who did not become president, which is "reliving the primaries" by the way, then you must also focus on the fact that there is something fundamentally wrong with a party that purports to be "for the little guy" and that is better than nasty ol' Republicans, yet turns around and breaks its own rules to get their chosen candidate elected, even at the expense of the "status quo" candidate who actually got more votes.

    I don't give a d@mn about the primaries except that the process was bastardized and want to see that change.  What I do care about is that the political neophyte who won isn't leading with the values and ideas of the party with whom he won.  Yes, he's the president of everyone, not just those who voted for him, but it would be nice to see him not start negotiating with Republicans from a standpoint of their ideas (which are bad).  It would be nice to see him actually take a stand on something that would turn out to be, oh I don't know, actually good policy.

    But that's just me.

    Parent

    That is what happens when you get the (none / 0) (#119)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:00:57 PM EST
    dream job :)  You also get the nightmare responsibility, and I will push on Obama because that is the only push that will do jack chit when we own the House and we own the Senate, and the fool with the bully pulpit right now keeps insisting on a magic 60 votes until he decides to quit insisting on it.  And then different magic can happen and I don't need 60 votes.  I think at this point I know who has the magic.

    Parent
    Too bad about Biden supporting (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:29:15 PM EST
    the war, and too bad about Rahm supporting the war.. and Hillary for that matter.
    They're just taking poor, poor, peace-loving Obama for a ride.

    Parent
    I'm sorry, did you think there was an (5.00 / 3) (#147)
    by esmense on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:19:22 PM EST
    anti-war Democrat in the race?

    Now, while my views on military matters are closer to Kucinich's than anybody else, I don't harbor any personal disappointment over Obama's failure to make any significant changes to Bush policy in Iraq -- because I never for one minute saw any reason to think that he would. I knew he was just as much, if not more, of a conventional establishment Democrat in terms of foreign policy as his major opponent. (And suspected, as has been proven, that he was more conservative in terms of domestic policy.)

    But, if you really voted for him believing that his administration would be any less committed to turning "brown people thousands of miles away" into "grease spots" than all the conservative Democrats who were so supportive of and instrumental in his candidacy (Daschle,Reid, etc., etc.) then you should be disappointed. And rather than launching attacks against people who made a much more correct judgement you should be questioning your own.

    No presidential candidate who posed a serious threat to this country's long-standing bi-partisan concensus on military matters could ever get the backing of the Democratic establishment. No way, no how.

    If you thought Obama had somehow managed to change that reality, you were simply naive.

    Parent

    but dont ask you (2.66 / 3) (#51)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:12:19 PM EST
    to relive those primaries

    Parent
    I think you're assuming alot (none / 0) (#89)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:40:50 PM EST
    Who said I or anyone here for that matter gave a pass to our political leaders?

    Since when is making a choice in the primary to support one person over the other the same as giving someone a pass?

    Parent

    I am royally pissed that there isn't a (none / 0) (#76)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:33:51 PM EST
    PO, but if they don't get something through now...it won't happen later, 2010 is too volatile.  It's now or never, I'm going to take what I get. I am really ticked though.  I am super ticked off.  I am not motivated to show up at the 2010 polls.

    Parent
    Heck (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:48:21 PM EST
    there's no guarantee that even if they pass something now that anything happens. If the GOP takes over in Nov, them all they have to do is defund everything this and it's gone in a poof of smoke. We all know Obama is a jelly fish so if the GOP is getting their way NOW imagine how it's going to be with even more republicans.

    Parent
    Observed (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:21:50 PM EST
    I gave you a 1 because of your ad hominem calling me "dishonest."  My commentary here has been very very honest....

    I frankly don't see the evidence that you are suggesting exists that shows Maddow did not "report honestly."  You have cited none.  But she did support Obama as did Josh Marshall--another pariah.  Thus, the distinction between supporting Obama and dishonest reporting makes no sense.  This is a rationalization that you make.  Many of rationalizations I see on this blog to attack other progressives because of the primary are quite elaborate--after all, we can't oppose anyone and anything that ever supported Obama just on that basis alone, so we have all these other reasons why we can't stand Maddow and Marshall, etc--and the list is endless.  

    You did not like that Maddow supported Obama.  Fine.  But you take that to an unsupported level by calling it "dishonesty."  Your definition of that term is quite overdone.  You even call my disagreement with you dishonest....For you, it appears disagreement tends to equal dishonesty.  You sling that term around precipitously without regard to what it really means....or whether there is any evidence to support it.

     

    Parent

    I was going to apologize, but then (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:22:21 PM EST
    I re-read your comment.
    YOU are not only dishonest, you make a logical fallacy. Since I repeatedly said that I did not have  a beef with Maddow, it makes no sense to criticize me for lumping together all pro-Obama reporter/blogger/bloviators as being dishonest.
    I singled out specific people for a reason--because were egregious! I criticized Maddow based on what you admitted, which is that she was unabashedly partisan towards Obama. I could be mistaken, but I believe Maddow considers herself a journalist. If so, it's a huge fault to be openly rooting for one candidate over another.

    Olbermann was horrible; Kos was horrible;
    JMM was not quite completely horrible, but dishonestly pretended that he had no preference in candidates while reporting the worst about one and the best about the other.
    Maddow? I don't know.
    Ezra Klein? I believe he was an Obama supporter all along, but not objectionable. He's just an enthusiastic guy.


    Parent

    Your ad hominem are (4.00 / 3) (#185)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:31:53 PM EST
    tiresome....

    You want all journalists to refrain from voicing their opinions?  Really?   There two species--"journalists" and "partisans"--and the twain shall never meet?  

    In case you missed it,  we have a new breed of commenators who also engage in journalism.  That is the very premise of this site.  Do you have a problem with that?  

    You have yet to offer one iota of evidence that Maddow misreported facts.  You base your entire view on the fact that she supported Obama....

    You are revisiting a past argument with me--as I now recall.  Give it up.  And stop the name-calling.

    Parent

    Wow, you are really tedious (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:43:17 PM EST
    I didn't offer evidence that Maddow distorted any facts, because I didn't claim so!
    Stop the distortions and deliberate misreadings (I know you're not stupid).


    Parent
    So, you concede she (3.50 / 2) (#189)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:48:50 PM EST
    did accurate reporting.  You do not challenge that.

    But she had an opinion too which she voiced--so that invalidates the accurate facts and otherwise professional journalism that she engaged in.

    Translation:  she supported Obama so I can't stand her--even though I can't find fault with her reporting of facts....

    You are boxing yourself in, my friend.  
    Find something that Maddow actually did wrong, aside from express her opinion, or rest alone in your foolishness.  

    Parent

    I hardly know her reporting, as (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:59:21 PM EST
    I said several times.
    I do object to her use of the word "teabagger", which I believe is unprofessional, rude and bad for the Democratic party. This has nothing to do with the primaries.

    That's about the extent of my negative opinion. On the positive side, I think I've seen one interview of hers, ever, and it was good.
    As far as her open support of Obama (which you concede), there's no question in my mind that such support detracts from her effectiveness as a journalist.

    What is your problem? I'm going to "concede" anything to you, except that you are a boor who doesn't even take the care to read a comment properly before responding. And your just fantasizing about my opinion of Maddow to support your incorrect notion, instead of bowing to the facts.

    There's a lot of PUMA hate here today.. and it's coming from the O side of the fence.
    You want to start fights?  As I said earlier, I can see that November is shaping up to be just fabulous.

    Parent

    So who is dishonest? (none / 0) (#195)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 07:00:27 PM EST
    This is what you said upthread--comment #1:

    "You deliberately conflate the question of whether someone supported Obama with the issue of whether the person reported honestly.  When I specifically said the latter was the issue, you turn that admission into the former."

    Now you say in comment 187:

    I didn't offer evidence that Maddow distorted any facts, because I didn't claim so!

    You are being dishonest.  Or, probably just forgot what you had argued two hours ago--so motivated by your own bias that consistency is so beside the point....

    You have shown yourself to be a complete fool.  Your calling me dishonest was a projection.  

    Parent

    I take back my earlier observation that (5.00 / 2) (#198)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 07:09:13 PM EST
    you are intelligent. Man, you are dull today!!
    It's difficult to interpret your comment, because it makes no point, but I believe you are trying to show that I claimed Maddow was dishonest.
    Let's try this at a schoolchild level, for slow learners.
    I said, 10 times, I don't have a beef with Maddow.
    I barely know of her existence.
    On the other hand, I named the people who I don't trust anymore because of their reporting in 2007-2008. Nowhere did I say that I don't trust Maddow.  You continue to make the same conflation of positions which I charged you with 2 hours ago. At least you are consistent, to a limited extent.

    You are laser focused on using something I did  not say to prove a point.
    You have blockheadedly refused to acknowledge a distinction which I clearly made, several times.
    I give up, because you gave up using your brain hours ago.

    I guess your need to call me dishonest is tacit recognition that you yourself were.

    Parent

    Ha! The context is clear (3.66 / 3) (#201)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 07:13:55 PM EST
    It was all about reporting honestly.....

    You had to race to post the first comment on this thread calling me out by name.....And it was all about honesty in reporting about facts...and the entire conversation had centered around Maddow....

    More dissembling nonsense....You done been impeached, dude!

    Parent

    I was under the impression (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by ZtoA on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:55:39 PM EST
    that this site is an informed advocacy site not a journalism site.

    I think there IS a problem with mixing journalism with snark and bravado and opinion. Its like they are all trying to get the ratings Jon Steward or Rush get. So we get Rachel and Beck and political loyalty means going frat house in support of our team. I think there is good reason not to watch TV commentary that tries to pass itself off as news.

    Parent

    A matter of degree (none / 0) (#199)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 07:09:38 PM EST
    and skill....

    But there is a mixing of the two....has been going on for a long time going back to Walter Cronkite and Eric Sevareid....The trend has accelerated though...

    Parent

    I think your close to putting a finger on the (none / 0) (#202)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 07:21:47 PM EST
    problem for some. By choosing sides in the primary as Rachel did, I think she became a symbol of sorts. People saw her position on pushing Hillary out of the race as unfair and so their reaction is to see Maddow as unfair. They see her as the sum of her actions. Actions and experiences matter(particularly to this PUMA folk) but I'm not certain it's completely fair to Maddow to judge her entirely on this one action. I still see her position as wrong. However, if I were to limit my interaction to people who have never been wrong before then I'd be awful lonely. I wouldn't even have myself to talk to. :)

    Parent
    More dishonesty. God, you're (4.00 / 3) (#170)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:00:52 PM EST
    pathetic. If I wanted this level of reading comprehension I'd go to Big Orange.
    I specifically said I did NOT have a beef with Maddow; I did say that if she was an Obama partisan, as you maintained, that was a journalistic fault.
    What's dishonest is saying that it is only about which candidate someone supported, and not HOW they did it---a distinction I pointedly made.

    Well, the joint is all oranged-up today.
    That's what happens with too much hope and change.

    Parent

    2010 International Year of Biodiversity (none / 0) (#4)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 02:58:50 PM EST
    It's the International Year of Biodiversity - are you participating?

    Yup, found and killed (none / 0) (#18)
    by Wile ECoyote on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:33:51 PM EST
    a silverfish in my sink this morning.

    Parent
    Im waiting till Rove (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 07:26:33 PM EST
    passes and reincarnates in one before I start coming down hard on the silverfish, myself.

    Parent
    Is anyone (none / 0) (#5)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:08:12 PM EST
    else tired of hearing we have to pass this crap bill for HCR because it's a one in a lifetime opportunity? LOL. Even if this crap is passed, the issue is still going to have to be revisted because there are no cost controls AND most of the stuff doesnt even go into effect for four years so all the GOP has to do is eliminate it if they win congress.

    Once in a lifetime for whom? (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:12:50 PM EST
    The insurance industry? I certainly don't see much in the bill to cheer about. Without cost controls it just seems to exacerbate the middle class's race to the bottom.

    Parent
    Don't you know (4.00 / 3) (#11)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:19:59 PM EST
    His his awesomeness touched it so it must be wonderful and full of magic goodness right?

    Apparently people think if this bill is not passed there will never be HCR which is wrong headed thinking.

    If Obama was a smart politician he would take the popular parts of the bill and pass them piece by piece.

    Parent

    How would he sneak in the goodies to the insurance (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:26:53 PM EST
    industry if he did it piecemeal? ;)

    Parent
    Don't worry.... (5.00 / 5) (#12)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:20:26 PM EST
    Once we support our leaders and once the bill is passed, we are going to find out all the secret, wonderful things in it for us :)

    Parent
    thats a little better plan (none / 0) (#20)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:34:42 PM EST
    B than the previous one.  keep working on it.


    Parent
    you mean like (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:33:20 PM EST
    every other piece of legislation ever passed had to be revisited?

    on the other hand it had to be passed first.
    and if it was easy it probably would have been done a long time ago.

    Parent

    I dunno (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by CST on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:42:17 PM EST
    I for one am tired about hearing how if we kill this bill we will have a much better chance of passing a better, shinier version some day soon - over the horizon.

    Because that's what we've been doing for decades.  And it's never worked out that way.

    Parent

    they dont want a bill (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:54:49 PM EST
    isnt that clear by now?

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#48)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:11:06 PM EST
    I think that you could take the garbage out of this bill and make it decent but everytime somebody fiddles with it they make it worse. Now Obama wants to make it more Republican so that the GOP will vote for it. When is he going to get a clue?

    They don't need a "fix" for this bill unless they they think a fix is eliminating stuff.

    Parent

    He knows they won't vote for it (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by esmense on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 07:02:28 PM EST
    but whether they vote for it or not, he is convinced that emphasizing how "close" his plan is to the Republicans' plan and how accepting he is of their ideas is necessary to innoculate him against any suggestion that he is in any way supportive of those wild and crazy progressive ideas put forward by some people in his own party.

    He has made the calculation that castigating the Republicans for not voting for their own ideas is more of a political winner than fighting against their ideas.

    Parent

    God forbid (none / 0) (#64)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:24:13 PM EST
    he make it more Democratic to get a few more Democrats onboard. All hail bipartisanship!

    Parent
    It will be fine after the Senate (none / 0) (#7)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:09:59 PM EST
    institutes the fixes Reid promises.
    I guarantee you---after the Senate attends to the other 290 bills they are dawdling on, fixing HCR will be at the top of the queue!

    Parent
    It'll be done (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by cawaltz on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:25:41 PM EST
    right after they fix the Patriot Act. Oh wait......

    Parent
    I'm tired of it (none / 0) (#107)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:53:05 PM EST
    I'm so sick of it I could upchuck. But I am now more afraid of what will happen if we don't.

    Parent
    THAT (none / 0) (#114)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:57:42 PM EST
    is an entirely reasonable response.  

    Parent
    Obama (none / 0) (#117)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:00:20 PM EST
    with his dawdling has put everybody in a lose/lose situation except the GOP. It's gotten so bad that they think passing a crap bill is better than nothing. The GOP gets to win no matter what happens on this.

    Parent
    I think they should put Regans (none / 0) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:33:53 PM EST
    Say it ain't so... (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:43:08 PM EST
    bad enough we've got an airport named after that pr*ck.

    Though the $50 does kind of make sense, many gamblers believe 50 dolla bills to be bad luck.

    Parent

    I am almost certain you will get a (none / 0) (#27)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 03:46:44 PM EST
    quorum here re this proposal.

    Parent
    At least they didn't suceed in (none / 0) (#87)
    by nycstray on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:40:14 PM EST
    re-naming my mountain . . .

    Parent
    Nice... (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:07:30 PM EST
    hope they fail here as well.

    The devil is much more deserving of a mountain namesake, the fifty too for that matter:)

    Parent

    I'm going to be living by it again (none / 0) (#135)
    by nycstray on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:14:35 PM EST
    it would have been beyond horrible. Would prob take quite sometime to get the name to stick though. Especially with anyone I know, lol!~ I'm sorry, you just don't change the name of a mountain, especially to THAT!

    Parent
    Absolutely... (none / 0) (#142)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:18:06 PM EST
    It's still the Triboro Bridge and Interboro Pkwy to me here in NY...and I got love for Jackie Robinson!

    Parent
    who cares (none / 0) (#79)
    by lilburro on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:35:54 PM EST
    if people hate Obama or not?  IMO Pumas are pretty transparent anyway.


    I care (none / 0) (#85)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:38:37 PM EST
    we have three more years and a lot to do.

    and I am making them even more transparent.


    Parent

    So you're the thought police. (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:43:05 PM EST
    There are lots of DEMOCRATS who can't stand Obama, and who won't show up in November.
    To quote some moran I was reading earlier,
    it would help Republicans under the veneer of Progressivism to continually insult DEMOCRATS who are unhappy with their party and President.
    But heck, you're showing the same skills the party leadership displays.

    Parent
    Oh yes, I can't wait to see you (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by observed on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:44:44 PM EST
    call people "Republicans" for opposing the benefits cuts Obama's SS and Medicare commission propose.

    Parent
    What the heck man (none / 0) (#81)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:36:43 PM EST
    Scrapping all day around here? :)

    well officer (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:58:59 PM EST
    if all started when I posted a clip of Maddow calling republicans liars . . .  


    Parent
    Some folks are very frustrated right now (none / 0) (#126)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:07:23 PM EST
    I had to do something else for awhile because this healthcare debate was parboiling my frontal lobe :)

    Parent
    I did that for months (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:15:05 PM EST
    I am only back because the debate is over.
    and I only have shreds of sanity because I totally left it.

    Parent
    I picked a good day to go to a ball game (5.00 / 2) (#183)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:23:10 PM EST
    Hope Springs Eternal (none / 0) (#197)
    by CoralGables on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 07:03:39 PM EST
    Even Alexander Pope would have been a fan of Grapefruit League action.

    Parent
    We're gonna lose... (none / 0) (#111)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 04:56:02 PM EST
    our open thread priveledges if we keep this up.

    Kinda beats wonkish wanking about a healthcare "reform" about which my only real question is "how much less will any of us mortals be able to afford to get sick?"...doesn't it?

    Parent

    These are very tough times (none / 0) (#128)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:08:23 PM EST
    That they are.... (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:15:14 PM EST
    Time Tough...but they always could be tougher, and all the more reason to cherish what we got.

    Good news about your old-man btw...he'll be shipping in right after I'll be shipping out to see my old lady...we'll be looking at things in a much brighter light at that point I think:)

    Parent

    Repeat after me: not "old lady"! (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:21:54 PM EST
    BTW... (none / 0) (#149)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:20:06 PM EST
    anyone with some angst hit that link, you'll feel better I swear.

    Parent
    I will brighter (none / 0) (#156)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:23:24 PM EST
    One tiny exception, I have to go to court right when he gets home because my dog killed the neighbors cat.  They have cats, we have dogs, what I have usually wins any fight if one ensues. This happened about four years ago too but not the same dog and once the judge heard everything that had happened nobody was found at fault.  I think I need to get Othello a lawyer though.  I wasn't here, it happened when I was in CO with Joshua.  My husband will come home just in time to go to court with me and the dog :)  I'm so glad you'll be seeing your girl soon!

    Parent
    Are you sh*tting me... (3.50 / 2) (#157)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:27:22 PM EST
    you have to go to a "hallowed" court of law because your dog killed a cat?  Has the law of the jungle for non-humans been repealed?  You must have real winners for neighbors...jeez I'm so sorry.

    Well...good luck with the case, I hope Othello gets treated more humanely than human defendants:)

    Parent

    There is a County Ordinance (none / 0) (#169)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:57:37 PM EST
    about having a "vicious" dog and it includes a dog that would kill other domestic animals in it.  I'm fine with being liable for whatever damages he did, but my husband sees so many different things wrong with what we know of that happened that day. He should have been a lawyer.

    Parent
    If Othello resided in CA, (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:01:06 PM EST
    he might have to register as an animal abuser:  link

    Parent
    I was wondering about that . . . (none / 0) (#172)
    by nycstray on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:02:18 PM EST
    I'm not keen with labeling a dog with prey drive etc vicious.

    Is their a danger for your dog now?

    Parent

    I think it depends on whether (none / 0) (#179)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:13:32 PM EST
    they can prove he was in their yard or not.  I don't think he is in trouble if this happened over here.  Because of the pitbull problems though, they have to take dog incidents more seriously I think.  I need to get him a lawyer, and he should be able to meet the judge.  He isn't vicious to people at all.  He has a Nat'l title, he can't be aggressive at all towards people or toward other dogs to be shown.  He goes to libraries in the summer for dog awareness programs and hangs out with all the little kids.  I hope he isn't in danger.

    Parent
    Was the cat in your yard? (none / 0) (#160)
    by nycstray on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 05:28:49 PM EST
    I don't have any actual details about (none / 0) (#175)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:06:40 PM EST
    that.  My neighbor says that she saw the dog in her yard with the cat, but I had pieces of cat in my yard.  We have problems with our neighbors all the time.  There is no leash law for cats, and that is okay, but you can't expect your cats to be in my yard and everything to be wonderful.  The judge told them that last time because their cats are often all over our front yard hanging out.  This time Othello was in huge trouble but there were cats all over the yard again the next day after I was ticketed.  I grabbed one of them and called animal control and told the officer that I cannot be responsible for what happens to someone else's cats on my property, therefore whenever cats are on my property I will be calling them.  He then returned her cat to her and told her that if she can't control her cats they need to be inside.  It is a full out mess really because they also put up a fence that violates the subdivision laws, and when they put it up they damaged a part of our fence and that may have been how Othello got out if he was in their yard.  Unfortunately I wasn't home for any of this, only came home to the aftermath.  And I don't want to fight, but my husband is really upset about the fence.  And he says that they waited until he deployed to pull something like that knowing that I will simply try to get along first.

    Parent
    Speaking as a cat lover (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by Democratic Cat on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:55:08 PM EST
    (obviously), it sounds as if your neighbors are the ones who should be held responsible, not your dog.

    Parent
    Oh. MT, I'm sorry (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by Zorba on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 07:12:02 PM EST
    I love both cats and dogs, and we've always owned one or the other or both.  If someone lets their cats "roam free," then they have to expect those cats will either get into a fight with another cat or have an unfortunate encounter with a dog in the dog's own yard, or do something else that will endanger the cat (like cars on the road, for instance).  Cats should either be "all indoors," or you can expect that they will occasionally be killed by one thing or another.  Having said that, I also think that people must make sure that their dogs do not have a way to get out of their yards (and I'm confident that you have done this).  Certainly, it's easier to confine a dog than a cat in a yard.  I've never seen any fence that would corral a cat.  

    Parent
    Did you file a small claim re damage (none / 0) (#178)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:09:58 PM EST
    to your fence?

    Parent
    Not yet (none / 0) (#180)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:14:23 PM EST
    I wasn't aware of the damage until a few days ago.

    Parent
    I suppose I would have to prove (none / 0) (#181)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 06:16:10 PM EST
    they did it too.  I'm speculating because they were digging and chopping things to get the fence in that they put up.

    Parent
    Uh oh... (none / 0) (#206)
    by DancingOpossum on Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 11:20:59 AM EST
    The indoor cat/outdoor cat debate can inflame even more firey diatribes, incendiary name-calling and heated verbiage than reliving the primaries from day one. (Speaking for myself, I allow time-limited free roaming for my felines, and yes, I accept that this exposes them to more danger. And now I'm going to very quickly change the subject.

    you have to go to a "hallowed" court of law because your dog killed a cat?

    It gets better. My mother had to go to court because her "vicious dog" (a fat, spoiled, six-pound yapper) barked--yes, barked--at a child, and the child's parents issued a complaint. Mom told me when she went to court, the judge demanded to see this VICIOUS creature with its child-terrifying bark--and laughed out loud when Mom produced Lil' Yapper.


    Spelling... (none / 0) (#207)
    by DancingOpossum on Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 11:21:54 AM EST
    firey=fiery. ACK.