More of the same.
Open thread.
Make a new account
I mean wtf does anybody know, ya know? Parent
if Jeralyn wants to ban me for that I can live with it. but I dont think she wants a puma echo chamber either. Parent
If you are going to talk about them at least take the time to know what you are talking about.
Or are you going to now suggest that single payer is a conservative ideal(which is what most of the PUMAs I know support for HCR).
Obama is fighting a two front war on health care. It's a darn shame he's choosing to woo the GOP rather than scoot a little further left and throw out a feasible public option to control costs. Parent
How's that work? Parent
I think part of the problem is you are using a broad brush to paint a wide swath of people.
Just as Obama had people that supported him in different increments(some were thrilled, others apprehensive)there are people who are PUMAs that are going to have varying levels of credibility. It's better to focus on the argument the person makes for that reason. Parent
and being so I suspect you know what I am talking about. Parent
There were any number of people I stopped reading and sites I stopped visiting and talking head shows I stopped watching, and that probably started in mid-2007; the newly-Democratic majority Congress was doing nothing about Bush/Cheney, and the blather on the Sunday shows began to be unbearable.
The primary season started with me being an Edwards supporter; it soon became clear that no one in the media was really going to give him the time of day, and he wasn't going to last long. Around that time, the Hillary hate was really cranking up - on the blogs, on MSNBC, on the Sunday shows. It was so bad that I started to dig deeper to see if I could defend her from the blatant and unrelenting misogyny and, in the process, began to think she was the better candidate - especially after I began to dig a little deeper on Obama's record.
As bad as that was - and JMM and Markos and Maddow and Olbermann were certainly a part of that - what was worse was how the party leaders manipulated the system, disenfranchised voters, and stole - yes, stole - delegates; that was something we ALL should have been horrified over, that the media should have exposed as a wrong, and it was that failure to see beyond the partisan candidate preferences to the damage this was doing to the integrity of the system that put me off some of these people, pretty much for good.
The reason there is so much criticism of Rachel Maddow in this thread is because Capt. Howdy decided to put her on a pedestal and crown her a hero for calling Republicans liars - three of four times! - and ignored the fact that she closed her eyes to some of the worst actions taken by a political party in my memory, and she did it because it was working in her preferred candidate's favor; I don't find that heroic AT ALL. Can you even imagine the outrage if these things had been perpetrated by the Republican party? I mean, I understand wanting to root for one's own team, but isn't there something more heroic about putting one's country and the integrity of the election process before party? There's a reason why the Democratic party is splintering and fracturing, and it isn't because of Republicans - or PUMAs.
Sorry for the "essay" answer, but I'm tired of this always coming down to, "but what about what all these other people did or didn't do - this must just be about Hillary and you must be one of those awful PUMAs." There's a much bigger picture that cannot be reduced to "PUMA" and "pro-Obama," and if people aren't willing to consider that, I guess I am wasting my time attempting to explain it.
There's been more than enough turning-a-blind-eye to go around in a lot of quarters, Ann. Parent
will it take another presidential election for theses people to get the hell over it? Parent
Both parties are in pretty bad shape right now. Teh only thing that the D's seem to ahve going is that "tehy aren't as bad as the GOP". Wow, golly gee, isnt that great? Well, that gets you some votes but it's never enough to win.
There is a majority to be made but who will do it I dont know. Right now the middle class has no representation so whichever party can harness that can win a lot of elections. Parent
Jesus, dont make anyone mad..watch everything you say..no one understands the issues anyway.
Where's Robert Schuller or Dr Phil when we need them? Those two would be perfect candidates. Parent
Obama was by a slight margin the most hawkish of the candidates. He was also, by a large margin, the candidate most willing to distort his opponent's positions for political gain. Let's not forget that Susan whatshername accused Hillary of being ready to nuke Pakistan! PUHLEEZE. Why revisit the primaries though? I'm excited about the elections in November. Aren't you? I can hear the sizzle and smell the fried flesh already! Parent
It's bigger than any one person, one snakeoil politician...we have fudamental systematic flaws and failings that fester further while we argue cult of personality bullsh*t. Parent
Crickets.... Parent
I'm pretty sure BTD thinks of Obama as a pol just like any other. It's a matter of trying to push him one way or the other, so the posts are critical in terms of where he would like Obama to go.
I have no doubt those posts would be similar had Obama lost. Unlike say, many of the other posters at this blog.
There is a difference between being critical of certain positions, and finding someone completely hopeless. Parent
Somehow I don't think "Change" is gonna work in 2012. Parent
... turnabout is fair play. Parent
LEAAAVVEEE BARACK ALLLLOOOOONNNNNEEEEE! Parent
Geez. I don't call him Mr. McCain, or Mrs. Palin, or Mr. O'Connor just because I don't respect them.
It's Senator McCain, Governor Palin and Archbishop O'Connor.
At least give the office the respect it deserves if you're going to use an honorific at all.
I wouldn't have blinked at a plain old "Clinton" just as I didn't blink to your reference to "Obama" but your use of "Mrs." for such an accomplished individual feels rather calculated and --- oily. Out here. On the internets. Parent
Frankly, I don't think you are going to convince anyone though to relook at the evidence from another perspective at this point though. I don't think that some are ready to be at the point to recognize this isn't about personality, it's about core principles(just as it was during the primary).
As for Rachel, she's human and fallible, just like the rest of us. I'm not excusing what she did during the primaries but I don't think she's inherently bad or any more or less objective than the other media personalities(and some bloggers) out there. I, myself don't watch her(not because I hate her) because I tend to dislike the way media TV reducing things to 30 second sound bites. I'd rather get in depth and TV rarely does that in a meaningful way. Usually when the media does go "in depth" it's over something silly like the death of Brittney Murphy or some sort of celebrity blather. Parent
I viewed the statement about Maddow being a "hero" figuratively--an enthusiastic overstatement that was meant to express satisfaction in seeing someone state a progressive case sharply. One would think all liberals/progressives would be fine with that sentiment. But, no, the score-keepers jump in--even though most of them bend over backwards to show the rest of us dolts that they do not condescend to watch her regularly....but still judge her show as unprofessional--and recent shows at that, the ones that they have not seen that form the basis of what everyone is talking about. So, a casual statement about Maddow being a "hero" justifies a round of tut-tutting of how one should avoid hero worship, accompanied by all manner of condescending lectures about being duped etc. What on earth triggerd such a response to a simple statement of enthusiasm?
I do agree with Dr. Molly that the prior thread went sideways when the term "PUMA" was used. I guess it is now viewed as a derogatory--or at least inflammatory--term....It started out as an exercise in self-description. I do think that the best way to predict how one comes out on various issues here is to look at whom one supported in the primary. There are so many proxy fights that occur in that context. It is quite predictable how that works....But clearly using the term "PUMA" is just pouring fuel on the fire.... Parent
I don't hate Maddow or Obama. I disagree with them. There is a difference.
Furthermore, I was respectful enough in the primaries to recognize Jeralyn had a right to her opinion and not want to muck up her threads. I'd do the same if she asked me to leave because I am a PUMA. However, I got the impression that the site was open to diverse opinions. On more than one occasion Jeralyn asked people for their opinions. I was under the assumption that the question was genuine and she wanted a viewpoint expressed that was not her own. Same thing with BTD. Parent
That's a pretty diverse group of opinions.
The problem on an issue like health care is two front. Obama is running into PUMA like opposition from those on the left who want him to create or expand a government run program and those on the right who frankly don't like government run anything, they'd just as soon privatize everything and god forbid it actually cost money if it ain't defense. Then the right really gets the vapors. Parent
Most PUMAs, like myself though, are pretty reasonable people.
I try really hard not to judge too harshly those that voted for Obama and like to believe they did what they felt was in the best interest of the country(even if I disagreed). It's a darn shame that the courtesy can't be extended in the same direction. I have no way of knowing what would have happened if things had been different.....instead I prefer to just keep truckin' forward and work on issues. Parent
got it. Parent
Just my two cents
"This is a landmark theological study -- a careful and systematic treatment of a thousand years of legal tradition dealing with armed resistance against the state, rules of engagement, aspects. The fatwa itself ... is categorically and comprehensively against terrorism in any form and for any cause," Ahmed said.
Very very interesting. Sounds good to me... Parent
Cut the crap everyone.
Good luck MT, Othello Parent
Just a quick pen swipe and 'poof' no more data to rile up the serfs.
Sen Roy Ashburn arrested.
[I am deeply sorry for my actions and offer no excuse for my poor judgment.]
I think I left that short and concise enough for you. Parent
Funny, and not funny. Parent
And that Waterford Crystal ceiling not being shattered was so much more relevant than a hundred thousand brown people turned to grease spots thousands of miles away anyway. Parent
If Obama (or his supporters) can't stand the criticism, then he needs to find another line of work and his supporters need to read blogs on gardening. Parent
Personally, I dont believe in "The One's", in this life or the next..only Ones that include everyone. Parent
Perhaps Reid and the other Senmate Democrats just preferred Obama to Hillary because they thought he would be better? Not even possible in your universe, is it? But show me the evidence that says Obama supporters in the Senate wanted Obama because he would be easier to control....Gawd, you really think the Senate Democrats are that effective as Machiavellians? One could only wish....
And, I thought the consensus was they were weak and disorganized--but they were powerful enough to ruin Hillary's chances--her own inept campaign and Mark Penn having nothing to do with it--for the sole reason of having a figurehead as president that they could manipulate at will? You really think the Senate Democrats are that smart, effective and powerful??....Grassy knolls everywhere.... Parent
Democrats aren't weak and disorganized, except when it comes to passing legislation, which is the last thing they care about, any more. Parent
BTW - I don't know whether it's a "myth" or not, but did you ever notice how most of the CDS myths are, in fact, "unintentional".
"Oops". Parent
I don't give a d@mn about the primaries except that the process was bastardized and want to see that change. What I do care about is that the political neophyte who won isn't leading with the values and ideas of the party with whom he won. Yes, he's the president of everyone, not just those who voted for him, but it would be nice to see him not start negotiating with Republicans from a standpoint of their ideas (which are bad). It would be nice to see him actually take a stand on something that would turn out to be, oh I don't know, actually good policy.
But that's just me. Parent
Now, while my views on military matters are closer to Kucinich's than anybody else, I don't harbor any personal disappointment over Obama's failure to make any significant changes to Bush policy in Iraq -- because I never for one minute saw any reason to think that he would. I knew he was just as much, if not more, of a conventional establishment Democrat in terms of foreign policy as his major opponent. (And suspected, as has been proven, that he was more conservative in terms of domestic policy.)
But, if you really voted for him believing that his administration would be any less committed to turning "brown people thousands of miles away" into "grease spots" than all the conservative Democrats who were so supportive of and instrumental in his candidacy (Daschle,Reid, etc., etc.) then you should be disappointed. And rather than launching attacks against people who made a much more correct judgement you should be questioning your own.
No presidential candidate who posed a serious threat to this country's long-standing bi-partisan concensus on military matters could ever get the backing of the Democratic establishment. No way, no how.
If you thought Obama had somehow managed to change that reality, you were simply naive. Parent
Since when is making a choice in the primary to support one person over the other the same as giving someone a pass? Parent
I frankly don't see the evidence that you are suggesting exists that shows Maddow did not "report honestly." You have cited none. But she did support Obama as did Josh Marshall--another pariah. Thus, the distinction between supporting Obama and dishonest reporting makes no sense. This is a rationalization that you make. Many of rationalizations I see on this blog to attack other progressives because of the primary are quite elaborate--after all, we can't oppose anyone and anything that ever supported Obama just on that basis alone, so we have all these other reasons why we can't stand Maddow and Marshall, etc--and the list is endless.
You did not like that Maddow supported Obama. Fine. But you take that to an unsupported level by calling it "dishonesty." Your definition of that term is quite overdone. You even call my disagreement with you dishonest....For you, it appears disagreement tends to equal dishonesty. You sling that term around precipitously without regard to what it really means....or whether there is any evidence to support it.
Parent
Olbermann was horrible; Kos was horrible; JMM was not quite completely horrible, but dishonestly pretended that he had no preference in candidates while reporting the worst about one and the best about the other. Maddow? I don't know. Ezra Klein? I believe he was an Obama supporter all along, but not objectionable. He's just an enthusiastic guy. Parent
You want all journalists to refrain from voicing their opinions? Really? There two species--"journalists" and "partisans"--and the twain shall never meet?
In case you missed it, we have a new breed of commenators who also engage in journalism. That is the very premise of this site. Do you have a problem with that?
You have yet to offer one iota of evidence that Maddow misreported facts. You base your entire view on the fact that she supported Obama....
You are revisiting a past argument with me--as I now recall. Give it up. And stop the name-calling. Parent
But she had an opinion too which she voiced--so that invalidates the accurate facts and otherwise professional journalism that she engaged in.
Translation: she supported Obama so I can't stand her--even though I can't find fault with her reporting of facts....
You are boxing yourself in, my friend. Find something that Maddow actually did wrong, aside from express her opinion, or rest alone in your foolishness. Parent
That's about the extent of my negative opinion. On the positive side, I think I've seen one interview of hers, ever, and it was good. As far as her open support of Obama (which you concede), there's no question in my mind that such support detracts from her effectiveness as a journalist.
What is your problem? I'm going to "concede" anything to you, except that you are a boor who doesn't even take the care to read a comment properly before responding. And your just fantasizing about my opinion of Maddow to support your incorrect notion, instead of bowing to the facts.
There's a lot of PUMA hate here today.. and it's coming from the O side of the fence. You want to start fights? As I said earlier, I can see that November is shaping up to be just fabulous. Parent
"You deliberately conflate the question of whether someone supported Obama with the issue of whether the person reported honestly. When I specifically said the latter was the issue, you turn that admission into the former."
Now you say in comment 187:
I didn't offer evidence that Maddow distorted any facts, because I didn't claim so!
You are being dishonest. Or, probably just forgot what you had argued two hours ago--so motivated by your own bias that consistency is so beside the point....
You have shown yourself to be a complete fool. Your calling me dishonest was a projection. Parent
You are laser focused on using something I did not say to prove a point. You have blockheadedly refused to acknowledge a distinction which I clearly made, several times. I give up, because you gave up using your brain hours ago.
I guess your need to call me dishonest is tacit recognition that you yourself were. Parent
You had to race to post the first comment on this thread calling me out by name.....And it was all about honesty in reporting about facts...and the entire conversation had centered around Maddow....
More dissembling nonsense....You done been impeached, dude! Parent
I think there IS a problem with mixing journalism with snark and bravado and opinion. Its like they are all trying to get the ratings Jon Steward or Rush get. So we get Rachel and Beck and political loyalty means going frat house in support of our team. I think there is good reason not to watch TV commentary that tries to pass itself off as news. Parent
But there is a mixing of the two....has been going on for a long time going back to Walter Cronkite and Eric Sevareid....The trend has accelerated though... Parent
Well, the joint is all oranged-up today. That's what happens with too much hope and change. Parent
Apparently people think if this bill is not passed there will never be HCR which is wrong headed thinking.
If Obama was a smart politician he would take the popular parts of the bill and pass them piece by piece. Parent
on the other hand it had to be passed first. and if it was easy it probably would have been done a long time ago. Parent
Because that's what we've been doing for decades. And it's never worked out that way. Parent
They don't need a "fix" for this bill unless they they think a fix is eliminating stuff. Parent
He has made the calculation that castigating the Republicans for not voting for their own ideas is more of a political winner than fighting against their ideas. Parent
Though the $50 does kind of make sense, many gamblers believe 50 dolla bills to be bad luck. Parent
The devil is much more deserving of a mountain namesake, the fifty too for that matter:) Parent
and I am making them even more transparent. Parent
Kinda beats wonkish wanking about a healthcare "reform" about which my only real question is "how much less will any of us mortals be able to afford to get sick?"...doesn't it? Parent
Good news about your old-man btw...he'll be shipping in right after I'll be shipping out to see my old lady...we'll be looking at things in a much brighter light at that point I think:) Parent
Well...good luck with the case, I hope Othello gets treated more humanely than human defendants:) Parent
Is their a danger for your dog now? Parent
you have to go to a "hallowed" court of law because your dog killed a cat?
It gets better. My mother had to go to court because her "vicious dog" (a fat, spoiled, six-pound yapper) barked--yes, barked--at a child, and the child's parents issued a complaint. Mom told me when she went to court, the judge demanded to see this VICIOUS creature with its child-terrifying bark--and laughed out loud when Mom produced Lil' Yapper.